Conversions to/from Christianity

Great Debates
1

Does anyone know of any information as to which is greater nowadays?

The number of people in the western world that convert **away **from fundamentalist, church-going Christianity as adults vs. the number of people who convert **to **fundamentalist, church-going Christianity as adults (not in third world countries, in other words)?

I’m just curious before someone jumps down my throat for why I’m wondering. :rolleyes:

Edit: I’m realizing this might fit better in the General forum for factual questions so if someone can move it if that’s the case, thanks.

2

How would one get statistics for something like that?

3

You may need to define your use of the word fundamentalist before we can make a good stab at this. Would you include the large number of traditionally Catholic people in South and Central America and the U.S. who have been converting to Pentecostal churches (or, somewhat less frequently) Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestant churches? Or would you only include groups such as Baptist or AME folks converting either to Islam or the separate Nation of Islam?

4

I have no idea how you would figure out something like that either. However, fundamentalism is on the rise in parts of the country. Mega-churches with tens of thousands of members are a growing trend and account for a lot of people. They are basically small cities and allow members to do whatever they need to within the church environment. Texas is sprouting mega-churches like crazy. A few years ago, I read that Mormonism is the fasted growing religion in the world if that counts.

I have no idea about the flip-side though.

5

One problem is, what do you count as converting from Christianity?

Do you have to officially join another religion? If that’s your criterion, you’re undercounting by the number of people who become atheists, agnostics, or “spiritual but not religious”.

Does “not going to church any more” count as converting from Christianity? What if you don’t go to church, but still believe in the church teachings and doctrines? What if you go on Christmas and Easter, but not any other time? What if you celebrate Christmas and Easter and think of them as religious holidays, but don’t go to church?

And then there’s the problem of what constitutes “fundamentalist church-going Christianity”. There are denominations that include people with a wide range of beliefs, some of which could be called fundamentalist and some of which couldn’t (my example here is that George W. Bush and Hillary Clinton are both Methodists, but clearly have very different religious beliefs). How would you track changes between one variety of beliefs and another in that kind of denomination?

Some religions and church denominations do require some sort of ceremony for a non-member to join them (Judaism and Catholicism are examples), but some don’t- you can just start showing up at their church. Some Protestant denominations will let anyone who has been baptized do this. Are you joining their version of Christianity if you go to one service? If you go on holidays? If you go most Sundays?

6

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
I have no idea how you would figure out something like that either. However, fundamentalism is on the rise in parts of the country. Mega-churches with tens of thousands of members are a growing trend and account for a lot of people. They are basically small cities and allow members to do whatever they need to within the church environment. Texas is sprouting mega-churches like crazy.
[/quote]

Fundamentalist or Evangelical? They aren’t the same thing.

I agree with Tom-- we need some clear definitions before we can even begin. And I’m not sure how easy it will be to do once we get past that point.

I assume that would be percentage-wise, right?

7

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
You may need to define your use of the word fundamentalist before we can make a good stab at this. Would you include the large number of traditionally Catholic people in South and Central America and the U.S. who have been converting to Pentecostal churches (or, somewhat less frequently) Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestant churches? Or would you only include groups such as Baptist or AME folks converting either to Islam or the separate Nation of Islam?
[/QUOTE]

I’d include the first if part of the western world (as in the OP) and if the conversions are happening as adults, yes. Christians converting to Islam? Sure.

8

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
One problem is, what do you count as converting from Christianity?

Do you have to officially join another religion? If that’s your criterion, you’re undercounting by the number of people who become atheists, agnostics, or “spiritual but not religious”.

Does “not going to church any more” count as converting from Christianity? What if you don’t go to church, but still believe in the church teachings and doctrines? What if you go on Christmas and Easter, but not any other time? What if you celebrate Christmas and Easter and think of them as religious holidays, but don’t go to church?

And then there’s the problem of what constitutes “fundamentalist church-going Christianity”. There are denominations that include people with a wide range of beliefs, some of which could be called fundamentalist and some of which couldn’t (my example here is that George W. Bush and Hillary Clinton are both Methodists, but clearly have very different religious beliefs). How would you track changes between one variety of beliefs and another in that kind of denomination?

Some religions and church denominations do require some sort of ceremony for a non-member to join them (Judaism and Catholicism are examples), but some don’t- you can just start showing up at their church. Some Protestant denominations will let anyone who has been baptized do this. Are you joining their version of Christianity if you go to one service? If you go on holidays? If you go most Sundays?
[/QUOTE]

One way to count converting from Christianity would be those people that ask for their names to be removed from the church they attend. I’ve seen that done with the church I used to attend. It’s a built-in structure for when you’re moving from one church to another. But it’s also used to simply say I’m not with you anymore. That would certainly undercount those that left since it stands to reason that not everybody who leaves is going to want to have to deal with someone trying to talk you into staying, but it’s one figure.

As for fundamentalists, I’d go with those that believe in the literal truth of the bible.

I tend to think that a fundamentalist would not be someone who doesn’t go to church and only celebrates on holidays. For the sake of argument, let’s define fundamentalists as those that self-define as above and go to church regularly and believe it to be a part of their faith that they should do so (remembering my own).

As for tracking changes within one denomination, I think we again go with self-defined fundamentalists for the sake of seeing what the trends might be.

For example, I self-identified as a fundamentalist and would say so if asked/polled and I left the church and the belief. Meanwhile, I’m sure other adults in the western world are joining the same church I left and doing so on a fundamentalist basis. I’m curious how the numbers might look.

9

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Fundamentalist or Evangelical? They aren’t the same thing.

I agree with Tom-- we need some clear definitions before we can even begin. And I’m not sure how easy it will be to do once we get past that point.
I assume that would be percentage-wise, right?
[/QUOTE]

Good question; I’d guess it’s rate of growth and yeah percentage.

10

30 million according to this site: http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/fund.html.

11

[QUOTE=Liberal]
30 million according to this site: http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/fund.html.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks, but that’s from almost ten years ago, 1998. Reviewed in 2001.

It’s a good baseline though because what I’m wondering is what the trend is today.

So, if we take that 30 million (what’s that, like less than 10% of the US Pop.?) from 1998 I wonder how that’s changed from 10 or 20 years before 1998 and up to today.

12

[QUOTE=9thFloor]
One way to count converting from Christianity would be those people that ask for their names to be removed from the church they attend. I’ve seen that done with the church I used to attend. It’s a built-in structure for when you’re moving from one church to another. But it’s also used to simply say I’m not with you anymore. That would certainly undercount those that left since it stands to reason that not everybody who leaves is going to want to have to deal with someone trying to talk you into staying, but it’s one figure.
[/quote]

I think it’s going to severely undercount. I’m no longer a Christian- I officially converted to Judaism after a period of practicing no religion. But I never bothered to say anything about it to the Methodist church I grew up in. My sister is “spiritual but not religious”, married to a Catholic, and agreed to raise her children Catholic. AFAIK, she never said anything to anyone from the Methodist church, either.

We were never members in our own right of the church, AFAIK- our parents were, and we never joined up after we moved out of their house to go to college. I’m not sure what kind of record of me or my sister the Methodist church might have. I suspect there are a fair number of people like us, who were raised in religious households but never joined a church on our own.

13

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
I think it’s going to severely undercount. I’m no longer a Christian- I officially converted to Judaism after a period of practicing no religion. But I never bothered to say anything about it to the Methodist church I grew up in. My sister is “spiritual but not religious”, married to a Catholic, and agreed to raise her children Catholic. AFAIK, she never said anything to anyone from the Methodist church, either.

We were never members in our own right of the church, AFAIK- our parents were, and we never joined up after we moved out of their house to go to college. I’m not sure what kind of record of me or my sister the Methodist church might have. I suspect there are a fair number of people like us, who were raised in religious households but never joined a church on our own.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I’d expect you’re right it would severely undercount so that would need to be taken into account.

14

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
A few years ago, I read that Mormonism is the fasted growing religion in the world if that counts.

[/QUOTE]

I’m pretty sure that’s not correct; I think the LDS Church only comes in at 2 or 3, worldwide. The Pentecostals are growing faster, IIRC.

But it does bring up the question of who exactly is a “fundamentalist.” Mormons aren’t, but they are a small branch of Christianity that is fast-growing and which asks for a big committment. Do they count? How about the JWs? Seventh-day Adventists? Pentecostals? Anabaptist sects? (I have a friend who converted to the Mennonites.)

15

[QUOTE=dangermom]
I’m pretty sure that’s not correct; I think the LDS Church only comes in at 2 or 3, worldwide. The Pentecostals are growing faster, IIRC.

But it does bring up the question of who exactly is a “fundamentalist.” Mormons aren’t, but they are a small branch of Christianity that is fast-growing and which asks for a big committment. Do they count? How about the JWs? Seventh-day Adventists? Pentecostals? Anabaptist sects? (I have a friend who converted to the Mennonites.)
[/QUOTE]

I’d count them all if they believe in the literal truth of the bible. I was SDA.

16

[QUOTE=9thFloor]
I’d count them all if they believe in the literal truth of the bible. I was SDA.
[/QUOTE]
That’s not very specific. Which bits of the Bible? Are you talking about a YA creation, a literal Adam and Eve, a flood, the Exodus, the reality of King David as a historical person, the reality of Jesus Christ and his resurrection? You’d need a checklist. The answers for each different sect would vary for each element (and some answers would be “it’s not important”).

You need a better criterion than that.

17

[QUOTE=dangermom]
That’s not very specific. Which bits of the Bible? Are you talking about a YA creation, a literal Adam and Eve, a flood, the Exodus, the reality of King David as a historical person, the reality of Jesus Christ and his resurrection? You’d need a checklist. The answers for each different sect would vary for each element (and some answers would be “it’s not important”).

You need a better criterion than that.
[/QUOTE]

I’d say all of the above and when in doubt, go with self-identified. That’s used for polling all the time and the point is to get some general idea of a trend in one direction or the other, not to perfectly describe every single person’s nuanced beliefs.

By the way, everyone I knew growing up believed in all of the above literally.

18

Self-identified what? Fundamentalist?

OK, so now by your criteria, Mormons don’t count, for two reasons. They do not identify as fundamentalist (though they do as Christian), and the LDS Church has no doctrinal position on the creation. Members make up their own minds as to what they think about that, so it covers the entire spectrum and it’s not an important issue (though IME a 24/7 creation belief is quite rare). On the whole they take the Bible literally, but somewhat differently than mainstream Christians do. There are 5 million Mormons in the US and I believe ~13 million worldwide–at least half of those are converts–so you can take them out.

I don’t know about JWs since I’m not familiar enough with their doctrine to say, but IIRC they have interesting opinions about Christ.

Anabaptists differ a lot within sects, but I don’t know a lot about doctrinal details.

I hope that helps you narrow things down a bit. :slight_smile:

19

[QUOTE=9thFloor]
I’d count them all if they believe in the literal truth of the bible.
[/QUOTE]
In that case, you need to more than double the 30 million number I gave you above.

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/penta.html

20

Actually, add another 15 million too. I forgot about the Southern Baptists.