JAPrufrock (nothing personal here but…)
Since this is the “General Questions” category which is inteded for FACTUAL answers, maybe your OPINIONS of the Torah and rabbinical teachings would be best left in IMHO. Since they are just that. Very humble. And very much an OPINION.
Perhaps I should clarify. Here are the questions I have asked:
what does the Torah say about converting?
What can be expected from a typical Conservative conversion?
Classes, for sure, but what else?
How long does it take?
Is it expensive?
If you want to comment about whether my girlfriend should convert or not, go somewhere else. If you have comments about different ways the Talmud are interpreted, I’m all ears.
Sorry about that JAPrufrock. I won’t speak for anyone else, but I got sidetracked by your statements in the OP about your GF and mom and thought that the reason for conversion was quite relevant in this case.
However, as I know nothing about the conversion process, I will let the others take it from here.
Thanks, I hope I didn’t come off as being too snippy, but I feel my questions have legitimate answers (albeit, some being more open-ended than others). Whether or not somone SHOULD convert is another matter all together, and is better suited for a different board.
Well, I began converting with a Conservative rabbi, and switched to a Reform (to Conservative rabbi was arrested on child molestation charges, and the only other rabbi in the city was the Reform rabbi). Neither of them charged anything (except for the mikvah, which was $50). I think it depends on how often you meet with the rabbi/teacher. I met one-on-one with both rabbis weekly for about a year and a half (switching between the two set me back a bit. The second rabbi had to figure out what I had and hadn’t learned), but I didn’t learn Hebrew.
As someone who converted under the direction of a Conservative rabbi, perhaps I can speak to some of these questions. I’m not going to try to address the first, since I don’t have the time at the moment to provide cites. As for what to expect from a typical Conservative conversion, you should remember that regardless of which of the three major movements in Judaism a particular congregation is aligned with, individual rabbis have a great deal of autonomy, and their decisions on matters of belief and practice are generally respected by other rabbis in the same movement (and often, in others as well) even if the other rabbis don’t necessarily hold the same view. A lot, therefore, depends on the rabbi with whom you work through the conversion process. To a certain degree, the process also depends on where you live and the size of the Jewish community there.
Here in Atlanta, for example, the Atlanta Rabbinical Association, which includes rabbis from all of the major movements and enjoys support from all except a few of the most Orthodox rabbis in town, determined a number of years ago that its membership was facing an increase in the number of prospective converts, many of whom knew little or nothing about Judaism. Providing a basic education in the beliefs and practices of Judaism for them all was becoming a significant drain on the time and energy of the local rabbis, so they decided to begin sponsoring an Introduction to Judaism collective course, taught by a rabbi with help from various laypersons, to ensure that before beginning to work directly with a rabbi, prospective converts had a solid groundwork in the basics. Nearly all the local rabbis now direct anyone approaching them about conversion to this course, and it’s expected that persons taking the course will be doing so at the direction of a sponsoring rabbi. It runs for 12 weeks, meeting once a week for two hours, and covers the history of Judaism, the major points of belief and practice (emphasizing the common elements among the various movements but acknowledging the significant differences), the Hebrew alphabet and the rudiments of reading Hebrew phonetically. At least in the course I took, there were generally a couple hundred pages of assigned reading each week. Most other larger cities have similar courses available, though in some cases they’re specific to one or two of the major movements. In smaller cities, this groundwork may be handled by individual rabbis in various ways; some prefer to wait until several prospective converts have contacted them and to then conduct a formal course with all of them together, while others may agree to provide instruction on an individual basis. Still others may rely on well-trained laypersons from their congregations to lead a course or provide “basic training”.
When the course is over, the sponsoring rabbi will confirm with the instructor that the student completed the coursework satisfactorily, and will generally then begin a more intense series of one-on-one or small-group sessions with the prospective convert. The number and length of these sessions, and what is required of the convert, are up to the discretion of the rabbi. In my case, I met with my rabbi for an hour or so at a time on a more-or-less weekly basis for about a year. I also attended Saturday morning services at least a couple of times a month throughout that period – my rabbi never established any formal expectation regarding attendance at services, but he clearly expected that I would attend regularly. Our weekly sessions generally consisted of the rabbi and I discussing the major points from reading assignments he’d given me, as well as additional information and explanation of particular areas of belief or practice. As one of the final assignments, I was asked to write an essay describing the personal spiritual journey that had led me to the point of converting, and to describe my motivations for doing so.
Once the rabbi believes that a convert is ready, he will convene a bet din, or religious court, usually made up of himself and at least two other rabbis from the same movement, who will examine the convert by asking questions to determine that the convert understands and accepts the obligations of the covenant being entered into. Usually on the same day, the convert undergoes a mikvah (a ritual bath) and, if a previously circumcised male, a hatafat dam brit (a ritual involving the drawing of at least a drop of blood) – (previously uncircumcised males will generally undergo circumcision days or weeks prior to the bet din – not the sort of thing you want to rush through in order to get to the day’s other activities). After the bet din is satisfied of the convert’s preparation and sincerity, a brief ceremony is held welcoming the convert to the Jewish people and bestowing a Hebrew name on the convert.
In my case, I entered the Introduction to Judaism collective course not expecting to actually convert. I already had too much respect for what it meant to be Jewish to go through the motions simply to appease my future in-laws. However, it was important to my fiancee that our children be raised Jewish, and I wanted to be able to support her in that. I enrolled in the Introduction to Judaism course mainly to make sure I understood fully what that meant and that I could go along with it, even though I didn’t intend to convert. The more I learned, however, the more the idea of converting appealed to me. I found that many of my personal convictions and beliefs were already aligned with those of Judaism, and that I could willingly accept the additional obligations expected of those who accept the yoke of the covenant. From the time I began the Introduction to Judaism course until my bet din was almost two years; there was a period in there of about three months where work obligations precluded me from meeting with the rabbi regularly, so it could have been compressed a bit more from that. The time for any individual convert may be longer or shorter, depending on their prior preparation and on the rabbi’s assessment of the convert’s readiness; the only way you’ll get in front of a bet din is when your rabbi is confident that his/her colleagues will agree that you’re ready. As for the cost, the Introduction to Judaism course was around $300. I don’t recall specifically any other expenses, though I probably made a contribution to the synagogue where my bet din was held (not my rabbi’s synagogue, which didn’t have a mikvah).
Per your express wishes, I’ll refrain from comment on whether your girlfriend should convert. However, there are a couple of things you’ve said that I feel compelled to respond to.
And I’m suggesting that your understanding is mistaken. I’m not sure to whom it’s acceptable, but as the responses you’ve received should indicate, it’s not “perfectly acceptable” to the majority of Conservative or Orthodox Jews, and certainly not to rabbis of those movements. Without the support of one rabbi and the agreement of two more, you don’t convert to Judaism. Doesn’t happen. It’s important to understand that there’s a significant difference between Reform Judaism on the one hand and Conservative and Orthodox Judaism on the other regarding the Torah and a Jew’s obligation to abide by it. Reform Jews allow to Torah and to halachah “a vote, not a veto” on conduct. In other words, you should be aware of what the Torah says and take it into consideration, but you’re not absolutely obligated to follow it in the face of compelling arguments not to. Conservative and Orthodox Judaism on the other hand regard the Torah as absolutely binding. Where there’s difference of opinion and of practice is in how the Torah is interpreted. Conservative Judaism may allow for more influence from contemporary thinking in how we understand what the Torah means, but it is in agreement with the Orthodox movement that adherence to the law is required of all Jews. Thus, Reform Judaism is generally more liberal in its interpretation of who’s Jewish and who’s not, since being Jewish in the Reform sense doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ve had to accept any additional obligations (which is not to say that there aren’t many, many Reform Jews who are as serious in their observance as Conservative or Orthodox Jews, according to their interpretation of the law).
It doesn’t take much thinking, then, to understand why it would be extremely difficult to find three Conservative rabbis to support the conversion of someone who had not fairly conclusively proved that they were ready, willing, and able to abide by as many of the 613 mitzvot as it is possible to in these post-Temple days.
I should also point out that a Conservative conversion doesn’t really buy you anything that a Reform conversion doesn’t, from the standpoint of acceptance in Orthodox circles or effect on status under Israeli law. Most Orthodox rabbis and communities will only recognize conversions supervised by other Orthodox rabbis, though some will stretch as far as recognizing a conversion directed by a Conservative rabbi in which the convert is held to Orthodox standards of observance, particularly in cases where no Orthodox rabbi was available to the convert. And all that matters to the civil authorities in Israel is that either your mother was Jewish or that you converted under Orthodox auspices. Otherwise, you’re not Jewish in their eyes – doesn’t matter how strict your Conservative conversion was.
Wow, awesome post.
A quick hijack, please? Could be TMI, so be warned…
An adult uncircumcised male wishing to convert must be circumcised? Ouch! Is that under a local or a general? Were any of the above posters who converted not already circumcised (it seems to be quite common among the goyim in the USA- both my sons are circumcised)? I don’t mean to be gross but I am curious.
Small nitpick on rackensack’s (excellent!) post - The clause allowing only orthodox converts as Jews under the Law of Return - the addition of the word Ka-Halakha to the law - has never passed.
So legally, there is wiggle-room to allow non-orthodox converts to become Israeli citizens under the Law of Return.
I believe that quite a few non-orthodox conversion have been recognized as legally entitling converts to citizenship - notably in the cases of various Celebrities (mostly basketball players and such), who almost certainly converted for the citizenship.
If this is important to anyone, I can try and look some cases up (may be difficult - a lot of these happened pre Internet Archives)
EJsGirl - almost certainly local anasthesia. It really doesn’t hurt that much, AFAIK… and you’re getting it better than the babies - the Brit is performed with no anasthesia :eek: (although some mohalim - especially those who are also MD’s - know how to pinch some nerve or other down there so that the pain is far less. Worked well for my son. Talk about the most frightening moments of one’s life…)
Hope this helps
Dani
thanks for the details, Rakensack. That answered many of my questions:)
Yep. Circumcision isn’t optional (at least in Conservative and Orthodox practice – I’m not sure about the Reform position on this). My rabbi was quite relieved to learn that I was circumcised as an infant – though it didn’t prevent some anxious moments on the day of my bet din, as I’ve related before in another thread.
Generally speaking, if a circumcised male wishes to convert, he must undergo hatafas dam bris, which is a symbolic circumcision (where a drop of blood is drawn).
Zev Steinhardt
Is the drop of blood drawn from…uhmmm…the same place it’s drawn from during a normal circumcision?
:eek: YUP :eek: