My girlfriend is thinking about converting to Judaism to please my mother. However, my sister has informed me that she won’t be considered Jewish unless she does so through a Orthodox temple. That’s not going to happen. As a side note, my brother’s girlfriend, who happens to be a devout atheist, is “Jewish enough” because her mother was a non-practicing Jew. Go figure…anyhow, what does the Torah say about converting? Is this issue even addressed. From what I remember from Hebrew School, a lot of what Orthodox Jews practice (i.e. men wearing a yarmulka) were rules invented by Rabbis that have no basis in the Torah. I’m not going to change my sister’s mind, but my mother is vaguely more reasonable. If I can show her that all the Torah commands is that you do x, y, & z, I think she’ll be happy. I’m certain that any of you out there with Jewish mothers will understand…oy vey…
That should better read: “…won’t be considered Jewish by Orthodox Jews/Rabbis/Synagogues unless she does so…” - at least that is my goyim understanding.
But I am assuming your mother is Orthodox, so that doesn’t solve your problems…
;j Grim
Go talk to a rabbi.
From what I understand of Jewish law, there is no question of converting since she is already Jewish–the religion passes through the maternal line. My wife and I are both Jewish atheists but that doesn’t change the fact that our kids are Jews, nor does my relgion matter.
Now if you want to practice the religion and feel you don’t have enough background, then as a practical matter, she might want to take some lessons. In that case too, talk to a rabbi. If your mother is so holy, she must know one.
Concerning orthodoxy, my understanding is that for the purposes of the “law of return”, Israel will accept converts only if carried out by an orthodox rabbi, but that is basically because they don’t officially recognize any other kind.
Sorry, Hari, I think you missed something in my question…my BROTHER’S girfriend has a Jewish mom. My girlfriend doesn’t. And, in reality, my mother is not Orthodox. She goes to an Orthodox temple, but she certainly doesn’t practice it. My sister does. My mom just cares about having Jewish grandchildren.
Maybe you should wait until she’s more than a girlfriend before you worry about all this! 
I’m with muttrox 
That being said, I converted through a Reform rabbi because I planned (and did) marry a non-Jew. However, the rabbi followed the Orthodox specifications for conversion, and supposedly his conversions are accepted in Israel, etc. (I have not checked this out, just going on his word).
~ Firstly, any rabbi worth his salt won’t convert your girlfriend if her REASON for converting is an alterior motive. This is why Jews do not go around “spreading the good word”. The goal is to keep the religion PURE. Those who convert because they TRULY want to observe the religion and the mitzvot are to be welcomed, however.
~ Secondly, if you ONLY subscribe to what is in the Torah, then you are excluding Midrash and Talmud. You would THEN be classified as a Karaite Jew.
~ About your brother’s girlfriend is “Jewish Enough” because a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. Her mother is Jewish, therefore she is a Jew. Even if she were to convert to Christianity, she is STILL a Jew. That’s why it is “good enough” to your mother.
~ I agree with Grim. Your gf wouldn’t be considered Jewish to ORTHODOX Jews if she converted to Conservative or Reform. If she converted to anything other than Orthodox, I believe there would be a problem in “The Law Of Return”, and your children would not be considered Jewish in Israel. However, I could be wrong on that specific point. I’ve heard rumblings about that changing lately.
~ As for what Muttrox said, “Maybe you should wait until she’s more than a girlfriend before you worry about all this!”, I’m sure you’re aware that you cannot be married under a chuppah if she is not Jewish. Furthermore, just a gentle reminder, it’s forbidden in the 613 to marry a goy.
I hope everything works out for you, but you have a battle ahead of you for sure. I certainly hope that your gf wouldn’t be converting for the “wrong reason”.
I have an issue with that very first sentence: The OP’s GF’s reason for converting to Judaism is to please the OP’s mother. Under my understanding, Judaism doesn’t take converts like that. Anybody have any professional knowledge on this point?
grimpixie is quite right; Orthodox Jews recognize conversions only performed by Orthodox rabbis. To the best of my knowledge, Conservative Jews will recognize conversions performed by Reform or Reconstructionist rabbis.
To shed some (er, very little, I’m afraid…) light on the question of the Law of Return:
The Law of Return is a secular instrument, whose only goal is to decide who is automatically entitled to Israeli citizenship. It has nothing, necessarily, to do with the issue of whether any given Rabbi will or will not consider any person as Jewish or not.
In any case, if you ever decide to immigrate (emmigrate to you…) to Israel, you will receive citizenship under the law of Return. If you are married when you come, the marriage will, in any case, be recognized, and your wife - whether Jewish or not - will certainly be given permanent residence. Quite possibly citizenship as well. I can check, but the only worthwhile difference would be whether or not she would be able to vote for Knesset.
Your children would be a whole different kettle of fish. They would be citizens, all right, but would probably not be considerd Jewish for the purpose of marriage unless you wife was considered Jewish by the Orthodox Establishment. This could cause problems… but I have hope that twenty years down the road civil marriage will be a viable option in Israel.
all of which answers you original question (what will you mother be happy with) not one bit. But I would say this - broach the possibility of reform conversion to her. If it’s good enough for her, go for it. If you ever feel the urge to come live here, tackle any problems that may ensue as they occur. Possibly have the children undergo conversion, or something like that…
Gah! I really help this helps you some. 'Cos now, I’m confused too ;j
Dani
OK, we’ll take this from the top:
She won’t be considered Jewish by all Jews, notably the Orthodox, unless she converts according to Orthodox specifications. There will still be some, though, who would accept as Jewish someone who converted in a different manner.
Of course the issue has further reprecussions…since, as you know, Judaism determines whether one is Jewish or not through the mother, if she converts in this manner, her children will likely grow up thinking of themselves as Jewish, though according to Torah law they wouldn’t be…
Because being Jewish is about having certain obligations in the eyes of G-d. Whether or not one believes it or fulfills it doesn’t make the obligations (in the eyes of other Jews who are thinking of that person as either Jewish or non-Jewish) any less binding or real. But for a non-Jew to convert, he or she must be genuinely accepting said obligations. And that, in a nutshell, is the major sticking point between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews re: conversion.
First of all, while it’s true that the yarmulka is only a tradition, it is based on a specific Rabbi’s implementation of a verse in the Torah - “the world is filled with his glory”, from Isaiah 6:3. This Rabbi made the point of always having something cover his head as a sign that he recognizes this fact, and this practice was adopted by many. So it’s not entirely without scriptural basis…although it is, admittedly, not hard-and-fast Torah law.
But more importantly, the Yarmulka is the least of it. Yes, it’s the most visible sign of an Orthodox Jew, but we Orthodox Jews do practice what’s said in the Torah itself - eating only Kosher, refaining from forbidden work on the Sabbath, wearing Tzitzis on a four-cornered garment, etc. The majority of our religious observances come right out of the Torah.
If you try to show her “all the Torah commands” I guarantee you’ll end up finding a lot more than you bargained for…see above.
In any case, the laws on conversion are derived from the procedure preceding the Israelites’ acceptance of the Torah in the desert. It doesn’t say explicitly that that’s “the conversion process”…however, it implies that that’s the process by which the Israelites prepared to become G-d’s chosen people, so those are the procedures required by tradition for non-Jews to join the nation as well.
In a nutshell, the Israelites immersed themselves in a Mikveh (ritual purifying pool)…this is implied when Moses sprinkled sacrificial blood on them (Exodus 24:8), as all sprinking ceremonies described in the Torah require immersion beforehand…and they committed to keep the entire Torah (Exodus 24:7). These two things are therefore required of every convert.
(Circumcision is also required for male converts, but that’s irrelevant to this discussion, as you’re talking about your girlfriend.)
Another problem I see (not from an Orthodox Jewish POV, but just in general) is the idea of converting just to please someone else. If your religion is the expression of your deeply-held beliefs and convictions, then I don’t see how one can convert simply to please another. One doesn’t change deeply-held convictions like one changes a sweater. And if, OTOH, one’s religion is so meaningless to them that it doesn’t really matter, then why should the BF’s mother care one way or the other?
Zev Steinhardt
Its probably not worth it unless you want to go all jewish. No offense (I’m not even jewish), but I don’t think anyone who would let their GF convert just to please someone is that devout. Her converting shouldn’t even matter to your mother unless marriage is on the way… which I assume it is.
In my opinion you should both convert to another religion like orthodox christianity. Unless you want to piss your mother off in which case I would suggest Buddhism or something like that. Better yet, evangelical christianity.
I totally agree with Black Pheonix and Zev.
If she wants to go the whole-nine-jewish yards that’s OK.
In my (mostly Catholic) country, many people still get religious weddings “just to please” someone, even if the haven’t heard mass in ten years and can’t remember how many commandments there are. It makes me sick. I take my religion seriously and I hate having it cheapened.
On a minor point, we gentiles are pretty much confused with who’s Jewish and who isn’t. Why is a guy who’s an Atheist more Jewish than, let’s say, me. I hold more Jewish beliefs than the atheist (heck, I’m even circumcised) and believe in YHWH. Beat me.
(I know the LEGAL reason, still…)
[nitpick mode] There’s no such thing as an Orthodox Jewish temple, which is what I think grimpixie was trying to get at. Orthodox Jews call their houses of worship synagogues (in English, at least) to distinguish them from the Temple, destroyed about two thousand years ago. [/nitpick mode]
No offense Pheonix, but WTF?
I understand you’re not Jewish, but trying to convert a Jew to another religion is a MAJOR MAJOR no-no, in Judaism. Of course, I don’t expect that you knew that.
Two of the 613 Mitzvot:
~ Not to intermarry with gentiles (Deut. 7:3)
~ Not to love the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9)
And in the same way that it’s NOT RIGHT for the GF to convert for any other reason than a sincere feeling of having a Jewish soul, it would not be right for HIM to convert to another religion so as to be on “neutral territory”. You just don’t change G-ds so you can fuck the one you’re with.
Really minor nitpick point to an otherwise excellent post:
When used in this context (referring to other dieties), it’s perfectly acceptable (and in fact preferrable) to put the o back in.
Zev Steinhardt
I am not Jewish, but the idea of converting to a religion just to please a MIL seems wrong.
Conversion to any religion is a serious matter, but conversion to Judaism is about as extreme as it gets, if I remember Zev’s posts in a previous thread.
My BIL went to classes of some sort so that he could marry my Catholic SIL in a church. He is a happy heathen, so I guess he just promised them the children or something. It was very difficult, because Jenn isn’t even an Easter & Christmas Catholic, she had no home parish, etc.
Anyway, in the case of the OP I would advise not converting. YMMV, as always.
You’re right Zev Steinhardt, thanks for reminding me.
Force of habit.
Yep. Generally speaking, one is not required to keep the commandments at the expense of one’s life. There are, however, three exceptions to the rule, and idolatry (which includes conversion to another religion) is numero uno on that short list. So, if one cannot convert to another religion to save one’s life, you can venture a guess as to the attitude Jewish Law takes to one who does so voluntarily.
Zev Steinhardt
Well, I realize that this isn’t a popular notion, but my understanding is that converting for marital purposes is a perfectly acceptable practice. I’m Jewish by birth, but certainly would fall more under the spiritual category of being agnostic. The ONLY reason to convert is for my mom to be happy and for the children to be Jewish.
What can be expected from a typical Conservative conversion? Classes, for sure, but what else? How long does it take? Is it expensive?
Oh, and if you don’t feel that this is the correct reason to convert, etc, please feel free to post your thoughts on the Great Debates site. This isn’t the place for it…