constanze
With all due respect, I think you’re doing a disservice to the OP. I don’t think you have any knowledge about these areas and it’s clear you don’t know how these things work.
And, btw, the USA has some of the best----if not the best---- building codes in the entire world.
I am not trying to be snarky, but you are clueless. Where I live it isn’t just expected, it’s common.
We install gas systems, A/C systems, solar, Geothermal, high efficiency boilers, radiant systems (including in floor), wood pellet, corn, and others.
Yes, I am an expert in “3 or more systems.” And I am not unusual.
Do the math. It is not cost effective without heavy government subsidies.
Lest we forget, the OP is in the USA.
And you would come and educate me on how I advise my customers? I have a spreadsheet that calculates total cost of ownership, that includes cost of installation, cost of utilities, maintenance, replacement cost—total life cycle cost.
Germans are converting to solar in large part the German government is paying. Google it. And just as I’m sure you don’t know that, I’m guessing you don’t know what percentage of Germans are.
They are not cost effective over the life of the unit. Period. In time that may change.
For it to change 3 things have to happen:
That may happen, although another technology may come instead, In the meantime they only work with subsidies.
What an arrogant comment! Rather than shipping the technology, just ship the subsidy.
My God. True life cycle cost analysis is a bit more complicated, my friend.
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constanze** I mean no disrespect, but I think you’ve come into a thread as informed, but I don’t believe you are; either about the technologies themselves, how they are financed/ purchased and supported, or how to calculate life cycle costs.
I hope the OP figures it out, with a local expert. (in 3 or more systems!) I just don’t have any more time for it, however.
I didn’t know you’re that old, to be an expert in very different systems like wood pellet, gas and solar together with others. But then, maybe you don’t have to do a 2-3 year apprentinceship to install and maintain gas, another to install and maintain solar, a third to install and maintain geothermic etc.
Because the experts I mentioned are people who’ve done an apprenticeship in their specific area, so they know how to install, maintain, inspect and repair all gas lines and boilers etc from different manufacturers, and then also have some years of experience doing this, while working towards getting a master craftsman degree (not a Masters from University, but a title that’s above an apprentice. It means that the holder has enough knowledge to not only do the normal work, but also run his own business and train his own apprentices and oversee other trained people).
I know that Germans are using the subsidies that the govt. offers to bear the initial cost of installation. I said so. I don’t know the current number of Germans total (and it’s only the two big southern states where solar is really profitable with enough sunny days and long sunshine hours), but Bavaria has a rate of 10% solar users. And I know - both from personal anecdotes among people who care about the rising gas prices but not about being green, but also from media reports that each time the Russians turn off the gas pipe or the oil companies raise the price, that more people convert to solar.
1 will happen, 2 is happening and 3 has happened. I wonder how you think the German subsidies work? They don’t cover 100% of the cost, either. They are special loans, and a bit higher, guaranteed rate for feeding electric energy back into the net. But the payback rate is approaching 10 years (from the old 20 years, that went down to 15 years), and the lifetime of the unit, esp. simple thermic units, is certainly longer than that.
Well, you keep saying that solar itself is too expensive and does not last long enough, and a TV documentary (let the sun in, I think it was called) stated that the US had fallen far behind in solar technology. So maybe if you don’t build enough good solar, maybe that’s why panels are more expensive or less reliable in the US. I don’t know how much they cost in the US.
constanze I mean no disrespect, but I think you’ve come into a thread as informed, but I don’t believe you are; either about the technologies themselves, how they are financed/ purchased and supported, or how to calculate life cycle costs.
I hope the OP figures it out, with a local expert. (in 3 or more systems!) I just don’t have any more time for it, however.
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I don’t have exact numbers about the technologies because there are dozen of variables, starting with the need of the house (not a 3 liter one, I presume), with sunshine hours, inclination, orientation etc. There are several different kinds of thermic panels available etc.
And yes, I don’t work for a living installing solar, that’s true. That doesn’t mean I don’t have any idea about the technology involved. I did get information from experts.
Oh, if you just claim it, then I will take your word for it! Wow. Is this simply another statement of conviction, or did you actually do a research and comparison with the building codes from the major European countries.
Because when I assumed US standards were similiar to German ones, I was countered that electrical fires happen a lot, so apparently your building standards are not the same.
There are many ways in which the heating system in your apartment building could differ in design and operation from the single-house low-pressure hot water system I’m familiar with.
However I will say that the slow build-up of air in radiators is not necessarily associated with a gurgling sound. The air can be carried into the radiator in solution, or entrained as very tiny bubbles. It can easily be detected because the air-filled part of the radiator will be cold.
Also note that the only place that air can be removed from the radiator (assuming the top of the radiator is a local high point in the system) is the top of the radiator itself.
Um, I didn’t deny that boilers need treatment; I mentioned that hot water boilers for showers need treatment against legionella, and that general hot water systems in areas with chalk in the water need treatment against that.
However, I just confirmed with my expert, and in areas with low chalk content, a closed water system like in radiator-heating system isn’t treated chemically here by small homeowners because it’s not necessary. Big boilers like office buildings, big apt. and similar are a different matter, but then big buildings have a janitor or similar anyway to regularly maintain the machinery.
So please explain why you think it necessary to treat all water systems across the board, against what you’re treating them how, and how a water-based radiator system differs in that respect from the boiler people use to heat their hot shower water. Or does the average American use not a boiler but a continous-flow heater for shower water?
No really. :rolleyes: I’m not going to give a true-life calculation if practically every variable is unknown; I simplified to illustrate a point, that over a longer period of time, a higher initial investment can be cheaper than repeated small costs over that same time period. It’s the principle of buying high quality once that will last long, even if it’s more expensive, vs. buying cheap low quality, which will have to be replaced very often because it doesn’t last long.
The general American attitude seems to be toward buying cheaply first, and disregarding average life cycle or future costs, and since the general trend in this discussion so far was toward the “cheapest” option, I wanted to point out another aspect.
Your ignorance on these systems is apparent. I don’t think. I know. This is my living.
Boilers over time will lose water. They are fed with devices that “make up” water due to leaks etc. At the very least they need scale inhibitor. As part of our normal maintenance we take water samples annualy and add water treatment as needed.
I find it amazing that I’m [dumb enough] to be debating this with someone who has such little knowledge about items like this. I doubt theres a janitor in Germany (or the US, for that matter) whos qualified to do the water treatment on a commercial boiler. Water treatment is a specialized discipline and it isn’t left to janitors to maintain.
Great. You called a friend. Maybe your friend can advise you as to how little you actually know about how these things work.
Raindog and the others who gave constructive, informed replies: Thank you so much for your efforts. It has been very helpful. A “green” option we’ve considered (though probably not affordable for us) is geothermal… thoughts on that? I know it is used successfully in this area.
Constanze: If you can construct a post without taking unnecessary potshots at Americans, I’ll be happy to seriously discuss your suggestions.
Miss Violaceous
Forgive me if your name is not familiar to me; nor is constanze’s. That said, I don’t know if you are a regular here, or how much history you have at SDMB.
My experience is that in almost every discipline----from software, to technology, to automotive, to medicine, to law to…there is a few here at SD who make their living in that craft and who are knowledgeable; often very knowledgeable.
I have nothing to prove, and no need/desire to win an argument with constanze. But the fact is, this is my living. (and you are free to ask the SDMB regulars if this is true) Your OP dealt----front and center—with issues that I deal with for a living. I have a couple decades worth of experience, and while people with similar experiences may have different biases and opinions, I don’t think constanze has any such background.
My fear is that you may conclude that this is more complicated than it is, or get bum advice. In the end, you don’t have to take my word for it. But I would stunned to the point of needing a defibrillator if constanze had any background in this at all.
As to Geothermal…prices vary region to region but for a 3000 sf house I would estimate the cost to be $17-$20K. You would also need a fairly decent size land footprint for the loops to be buried in the yard.
Believe it or not, with the cost of the gas line—both from the utility and the contractor----Geo may be more affordable then you think. (but it would not give you gas water heater, dryer, fireplace or stove, a drawback)
We have extensive experience with geothermal (it’s apparently one of 3 things I know about…(?)) and so if you are considering it I can answer any questions via phone if you wish to PM me. I can also evaluate any proposals you do receive and help you interpret things you are told or things that may be confusing.
Actually life cycle costing and analysis is done every single day. In a residential HVAC system it is an informal process, but it is done nonetheless.
In larger purchases it is a standard practice. In fact , the variable themselves are known. How they behave may not be, but projections and assumptions are based on the best research available. My background (apparently there are 4 things I know…) is in this kind of work and we’ve done complete financial analsys for things like half million chillers so financial managers can make purchasing decisions.
We are so far off the reservation that it’s probably not worthwhile continuing our discussion. I would ask a favor however.
Apparently I have impressed you so little that I am not just representative of all Americans, but that we suffer from some anemic, “general American attitude … toward buying cheaply first…”
I apologize to my fellow American Dopers for my poor thread showing.
I would ask that you not hold all Americans responsible for my failings. In return, I promise to not think all Germans as hopelessly ignorant, presumptuous and arrogant.
Deal?
Raindog, as far as I’m concerned the proof is in the pudding. I can tell from reading the posts that you know what you’re talking about. And like I said, I really appreciate your efforts. We have a huge-ass land footprint but I was hoping that there would be a way to integrate a water heater with the geothermal. Any idea whether that technology is on the horizon or is it fundamentally un-doable?
In a closed loop system using water there are two problems that have to be treated. Scale and corrosion. If you are not treating the water they will effect every system using metal. Scale will be in a smaller problem if you fill your system with water with a low level of minerals, but corrosion will become a bigger problem. Moving water does not stop either corrision or scale formation. I know because I have had to descale too many poorly maintained closed loops.:smack:
I work in two buildings where the crew before us did not worry about water treatment. It has taken me three years to clean up two of the four closed loop systems. And I am still haveing failures due to the corrision.:smack:
Scale formation in hot and cold water piping is not normally a problem in homes, except in areas where the water has a high content of disolved solids.
Never heard of legionella being a danger in an closed system. Normally it can be a danger where things are damp.
The cleaning of a hot air system is cleaning or changing the air filter on a rutine basis.
You keep making claims that gas will explode and burn a house down while electricity won’t. You claim that the only way electricity would cause a fire is owner error. Owner error can cause a fire on both stoves. So lets not count them.
Lets look at both cases of non home owner caused fires.
Gas leaks.
Piping leak. Natural gas is not a crossive so that would be a construction and inspection error. Gas lines are to be tested during construction, 20 PSI for 15 minutes with no noticable pressure drop.
Leak at the connecting tubing. The appliance should have a new connecting tubing and any leaks should have been corrected when the stove was put. Easy test soap bubbles. This is not hard to do I have never had any leaks in the appliances I have installed.
Electrical hot spots
Breaker connected to the electrical panel. Potiential bad connection.
Wires connected to outlet. Potiential bad connection.
Outlet itself. Potiential bad connection.
Plug itself. Potiential bad connection, and where wires are connected to plug can come loose.
All of these electrical connections can be in good shape when the stove is new. Over the life of the stove or oven they can heat up and cool down with usage (contraction and expansion) this can cause these connection to loosen. Especially if the wire is Al.
Now there are ways to lessen the dangers. For one I used No-Ox on the connections to my oven and I did not use wire nuts but split nuts.
I have seen the heat that can be caused by an poor electrical connection.
Also if water is spilled on an electrical outlet it can cause a short.
Gas is not any more dangerous then electricity.
OK. Wow I think of a boiler having a life of 40 to 50 years. It must be expensive to replace every 5 years. As you can tell I do not work residential.
Raindog,
I think I can see where Constanze has all his experience. He has been talking to the janitor. I have seen the kind of work the his experts do, every day in my building I have to clean up some mess that was left by the crew before me.
Constanze,
I have a BS degree in Marine Engineering, had a Third Assistant Engineers Licience in Steam and Diesel any Hp. (let it expire several years ago.) I did not have to go through different and seperate training for each area that I work in. They are inter related. The same with Raindog. If people in the trades had to go through three years of training to work in each sub part of systems there would be now unemployment. My job would take 7 or 8 people.
To be snarkie. Maybe Germans can handle only one area of a job. Na Tobie would disagree.
Actually current Geo do utilize the system for hot water. In any heat pump (or A/C system for that matter) the idea [basically] is to move heat. In the summer heat is removed from your house and put into the earth. In the winter, this is reversed and heat is extracted from the earth and brought into your home.
Rather than “waste” the heat, the Geo system uses it to heat water. So…the heat that was in the air, is now in the water. Very cool idea.
However…there is usually not enough heat to completely heat all the water you’ll need so the geo is “preheating” your hot water----essentially helping out your water heater. It’s a smart use of the heat you wish to move.
One other thing worth mentioning… You may have heard that there is a $1500 tax rebate for high efficiency home improvements. (actually 30% of the purchase price up to a $1500 maximum)
But there is no cap on Geothermal. This is a huge difference. Huge. What that means is that you get a full tax rebate for 30% pf the whole price with no cap.
We just completed 2 5 ton Geothermal systems, both were around $22K. In both instances the buyers will get $7300 tax rebates; essentially reducing their effective cost to around $15K.
I don’t know your budget or tax bracket, but this is a huge deal, and was enough to have several customers opt for Geo.
5 - 10 years seemed awfully short, so I did some Googling. A sampling:
13 - 21 years
30 years
15 years
10-15 years
Taking the 30 year estimate as an outlier, 10 - 20 years seems a rough consensus. Still a lot shorter than I would have expected (knowing essentially nothing).
My experience is 30+ years. I don’t ever remember taking out a boiler that was less than 25 years old. (with the exception of damage) I routinely see boilers that are 50 years old. IME, they last much longer than furnaces.
So you could either bring some facts and fight everybodys ignorance on how and where I’m wrong.
Or you can claim to be an expert in many systems and just snark at me, without giving any explanations or evidence. Just making statements like solar is too expensive in the US or similar without giving numbers.
Your choice.
I especially added that qualifier of “general American attitude” because I know that not all Americans are like that. General does not mean all, it means a majority. But maybe you misunderstood my intent. And you recommended the cheapest option and dismissed solar as too expensive (without any numbers), that’s what gave me that impression. I still haven’t gotten an answer on how long your typical life-cost analysis runs, for example. The return on investment, and therefore, the saving and comparability of it, varies when one projects 5 years or 15 years.