Convince me not to convert to Islam.

Great Debates
261

I need to break down the word religion into differing ideas:
1 - man made rules which has nothing to do with God or god(s). These are a product of oppression and slavery.
2 - worship of spiritual being(s), which absolutely exist and interact with us in a way that science can not prove it and IMHO never will be able to, but we can perceive if we have faith.

Short answer I don’t know. Here is my take on it:

God has set pattern in His Word and in creation. One such pattern is small things revolving around a central nucleolus, from the atom to the solar system to galaxys, which reflects God and us, He is the center.

Another pattern is the Hebrew day, starting at sundown, is related to creation to present day as presented in scriptures and our personal walk with God:

Beginning:
Hebrew day - twilight fades, still some light, but it grows darker
Creation - Adam and Eve fall away from God and the light of God fades
Us - When God creates us in the places underground and knits us in the womb (Ps. 139:13,15) we feel God’s Love, which fades and it grows dark.

Early
Hebrew Day - Darkness
Creation - Time from the Fall to the flood, this is quite a different world then we know, lifespan is much different, angels much more readily interact with man (in a way perceptible to man). People in spiritual darkness (they don’t know Jesus),
Us - time in womb, quite a different world, we are in spiritual darkness

Deliverance
Hebrew Day - Still darkness
Creation - Flood
Us - Birth

Leading up to Jesus’ birth
Hebrew day - darkness but dawn coming at end
Creation - Time from after flood to the birth of Jesus. People don’t know God directly but go through a prophet or other person. People receive the Law (10 commandments), they try and try and fail and fail to follow them, They get themselves into situations where God gets them out, usually lead by one of His servants, though the people typically grumble. People are still walking in darkness
Us - the time from birth to Jesus being born in out hearts. We go to God through other people (priests), we learn about God’s Law, try to follow them and fail, we cycle through this many times. We get ourselves into situations where God gets us out, usually lead by one of His servants, though the people typically grumble. We still walk in darkness as we still don’t personally know God.

Birth of Jesus, His walk on earth:
Hebrew day: The dawn of light
Creation: Jesus’ birth to ascension, disciples learn about Him, His ways, to trust Him they learn through Jesus Himself. The dawn of the light of the world
Us: Jesus is now available to us, we precieve His person living in His believers. Like the disciples we may not realize that at first, but something about those people attracts you to them. We learn His ways and who He really is. the dawn of light in our life

After ascension:
Hebrew day: walk in the light
Creation: disciples get the Holy Spirit and it is Jesus living in them, they walk in light the rest of their life
Us: we get the Holy Spirit and it is Jesus living in them, we walk in light the rest of our life

To keep that pattern consistent it seemed necessary to reveal things as humanity grows, and the birth of Jesus would have to be somewhere along the way.

Possibly, reading the life of king David we see that he did have the wisdom of angels, and seemed to understand quite a bit about many things that were made much clearer in the NT. The path that Jesus offers is one of grace through faith, that path was always available, it was not just for NT times.

He did reveal things He knew many would not understand, but He is able to overcome this, as He does today, the scriptures are not understandable by men unless revealed by the Holy Spirit.

262

I’d be slightly more convinced if there was a scripture passage that read “And yea, the stuff of the universe, from the grains of sand beneath thy feet to the hearts of stars, shall be arrangeth in a table… a periodic table.”

263

I never said he (or his website) makes his shit up. I like Richard Dawkins. And I’d expect to read non-negative waves about religion on his site as much as I would pro-Obama on WorldNetDaily or Cheney slash fic on DailyKos. But a fucked up situation like that in a fucked up backcorner pisspot isn’t a logical connection to the conclusion Stan Schmenge made. It’d be like saying Christianity oppresses black people, because some hillbillies in Bumfuck, MS had a lynch mob.

There are plenty of countries that are hell on earth, and it doesn’t change how some of the really bad ones got there with religion, but that’s not the point.

The worst? Without exception? This statement is false.

264

You state that Muhammad wasn’t evil but Demonic, isn’t that the same thing? There is nothing that can be said of God or Jesus that is fact,(fact can be proven) Anything about God, Jesus, Muhammad, Shiva, etc. all is based on Faith.
The word you believe in is the word and words of humans, so your faith is not on God or Jesus but what some human told you, you read about, or desired in your own mind, as I stated earlier that is your right, and if that helps you then it is a good for you.

If God knew(and He is said to know all things) then it seems to me His creation of Satan was a foolish gesture for an all knowing being.

If God is worshipped by Christian’s or Muslims then what difference would it make if one converted to Islaam from Christianity if it made them a better ,more loving, kind person who served God in the way they thought best?

Monavis

265

The only clear-cut case of an authentic, concentrated campaign against apostates, to my knowledge, were the Ridda Wars, waged by Abu Bakr against those who pledged their allegiance to the Prophet out of political convenience, and who after the Prophet passed, were quick to turn back on their heels thereby posing a critical threat to the Islamic state. In analyzing this incident, as a precedent, it becomes clear that those apostates were singled out and targeted not so much because of their religious beliefs, but because of the treasonous nature of their actions. Isn’t treason a capital crime here in the United States?

On the issue of hunting down apostates and executing them wherever they may be on earth, like the Salman Rushdie affair, I obviously don’t sanction that kind of behavior - I’m far from a cheerleader for the Iranian government, since I don’t consider them to be an Islamic state by even the flimsiest of classifications. It doesn’t matter how many Muslims there are who may believe that killing all apostates without qualification is acceptable, the Shariah is there to be followed, but if there is no functioning Islamic state in existence capable of interpreting and applying the law accurately, these so-called fataawa are null and void.

The Qur’aan does NOT decree death to the apostate in absolute terms, and the Qur’aan is the absolute and final authority on all affairs that have to do with Islam, obviously. The Qur’aan DOES however state in very clear terms that there is no compulsion in religion. I’d rather put my trust in the Book of Allah.

266

Thanks for the kind words :slight_smile:

There was an era of Rap where “concious” rappers were at the fore-front, I’m a little too young to remember some of the firsts, but when I was growing up the Nation of Islam and the Five Percenters/Nation of Gods and Earths were heavily influential on Hip-Hop and inner-city culture in general. The NOI and the NGE are far from being in any way associated with Islam or Muslims, but at the time, nobody really made those kinds of distinctions because Islam was seen as being “cool,” especially after the Malcolm X movie came out.

Since I was going to catholic school, it was like coming out of one world and going into another. I considered catholicism/christianity to be more of a rational religion than hinduism, but I still couldn’t get over how Jesus was always portrayed as a white man, white angels all over the place, white Mary’s, white popes - especially since most of kids I was going to school with were black, hispanic, or at least as brown as I was. Plus, the whole trinity concept didn’t make a bit of sense to me. So when I heard muslims decrying the portrayal of God and his Prophets as being white, or any color for that matter, and asserting his oneness, I tended to sympathize with them, and agree with their positions. These kinds of themes figured heavily into the [hip-hop] music of the time, so naturally I entered a certain comfort zone with “Islam,” as vague as my understanding of Islam was at the time. I was young, and it wasn’t until High School that I started to really question things, and consider myself an agnostic until I felt absolutely comfortable leaning towards one particular direction over all others.

267

I stated he may have been demonic. In which case that demon was evil. Mohammad the person would either be willingly evil, or more likely a slave to Satan.

You tell me, we read about the parting of the Read Sea, and those who accept it on faith look further, then later in their walk with Him, they themselves experience that for themselves. Would that be fact enough for you?

I have experienced much of God’s power and Love that it is no longer faith but fact.

There is no greater Love then one who lays down his life for a friend. It was needed for Jesus to lay down His life for him to Love us to the max. Satan allowed this to happen

Muslems don’t worship God, but a lesser god, they are not the same, Jesus offers freedom in Him, Allah offers slavery.

268

Cite?

269

While I don’t have, or care to go into the Koran, one of the requirements that Allah makes of his slaves is they bow down to them 7 times a day.
Here is a aspect of that very issue that still does infiltrate the church:

In the OT, God’s people were exiled to Babylon (well some were), which is also a land of slavery and bondage, the people were forced into this, which sould very much like what Allah requires:

Issac was the son of the free woman, which formed the Jewish people, and the Christ came from this line. Ishmael was the son of the slave woman which formed the Islamic people.

270

So, you don’t know then?

Technically the Arabs. And there is a disagreement between Judeo-Christian and Islamic lines on which son was to be sacrificed.

271

I think he was asking a cite on the “lesser god, not the same” bit :wink:

Anyway, Jesus makes his “slaves” gorge on his dead flesh every 7th day. Genuflexion is not unheard of (especially during communion). And of course there’s those 10 commandments, first of which is “I’m the boss, ME and no one else, do as I say”… How is that any different from Allah’s kowtowing ?
And by the way, it’s not mandatory if I’m not mistaken. I’ve had muslim classmates and co-workers, some quite devout, and they sure didn’t roll out their prayer mats in the middle of Geography 101.

Also, there’s not really any “Freedom in Jesus”, is there ? I mean, it really all boils down to “Accept/love/worship me, and I’ll give you life eternal ; don’t and… well, bugger off into oblivion !”. Not much of a choice, is it ?

It’s pretty much the spiritual equivalent of “do as I say or I blow your brains out”. Of course you can choose to say no, but…yeah.

272

I am sorry ,but your response makes no sense to me. You cannot state in truth that it is God who you worship, just what you were told or believe, I see no proof of any being except a human or your own mind telling you these things,unless of course you believe the psalmist who says"I say you are Gods and sons of the most high". Jesus used this when he was accused of Blasphmy for calling God his father. As I stated it is your personal belief and you are entitled to it.

Monavis

273

I am not a Muslim, but in their defense:If the Koran as you understand it, Allah demands that his ‘slaves’ bow down to him 7 times a day, then the 10 commandments are your God’s way of having His slaves bow down to Him.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

A good father doesn’t have childern so he can be worshiped, he has children because he wants some one to share in his love.

Monavis

274

You’re doing what a lot of anti religion folks do. You focus on the bad and lump all religion in with the worst scenarios. You exhibit your own prejudice while criticizing theirs. I notice you didn’t comment on the charity stats.

The problem is that it’s hard to link either the charity or the prejudice directly to religion. Would people who use religion to justify their prejudice be just as prejudice without it because that’s their nature? Would people who are generous and giving be that way without religion? We don’t know, and pointless conjecture doesn’t really mean anything.

275

*{Say [O Muslims]: “We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and to al-Asbaat (the twelve sons of Jacob), and that which has been given to Moses and Jesus, and that which has been given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted [in Islam].” *Surah 2:136

*{The messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and [so do] the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. They say: “We make no distinction between one another of His messengers”—and they say: “We hear, and we obey. [We seek] Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return [of all].”} *Surah 2:285

*And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them [the messengers], We shall give them their rewards, and Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. *Surah 4:152

It’s interesting that in one instance you assert that Islam seeks to enslave its adherents, but in another you seem to support the idea that the descendants of Ishmael a.k.a. Arabs are in some way more fit to be slaves because of their “bloodline.” That sounds curiously familiar to the arguments people (christians) used to make in defense of slavery here in the United States. I’ll pass.

276

blinkthrice, Have you read the entire Koran? Or are your quotes from it second hand?

I ask because if you have indeed read the book, I would like to know how you have reconciled to many of the verses in various suras which I will posit once you once you have confirmed that you have read the Koran yourself.

277

Charitable acts here and there do not, in any way, make up for the atrocities that have been committed solely in the name of religion over the years. For anyone who thinks religion has had a net positive benefit on the world, I suggest perusing through this wonderful book.

278

Hindsight is 20/20. It’s dishonest to pass judgement on men of the past with the sensibilities of the present. Just as being antinazi in 2008 is a very different proposition from being antinazi in 1935, so is judging today that, say, the Crusades were obviously evil religious brainwash.

You may believe that empathy, respect for your fellow man, kindness, non-violence, ignoring skin color or creed etc… are givens, that they are basic and natural human traits. They’re not. They’re 100% nurture. You’ve grown with these principles fed to you (ironically, in part thanks to the very religion you criticize)

Our world may seem grim to us, but it’s very tame compared to the Middle Ages. Violence, torture, war, death, rape and plunder, those things were everyday occurences back then, and not because of the Church - life just wasn’t worth much, neither yours nor that of your enemy, much less if he had more shinies than you. Mercy meant weakness.

In fact, the First Crusade was essentialy launched to stop the Christians from killing each other off entirely. Innocent sent the burly boys away from their disputed lands for fear of famine caused by peasant attrition. Can you imagine that ? Forget WWII, these guys didn’t mess around Geneva nor with prisonners (unless they were ransomable nobles, o’course. A buck’s a buck, ain’t no such thing as a free meal, especially with the fields burnt down and all).

And later on, when the gimmick caught on, well… when everyone you’ve ever known has taught you, from birth, that fighting for the Holy Land is the most noble and “patriotic” thing you can ever do with your life… Whatcha gonna believe ? “Fuck 'em, I’ll think for myself, bloody sheep-people” ? That’s a 20th century reaction. Individualism, too, is quite a new developpment of the global human psyche that is very hard to pull when you’re pretty sure to die about 10 feet from where you were born, tops, and everyone knows everyone. Ask any gay person stuck in small, close-knit village about it… And we’ve seen modern wars launched on shakier ideological ground :rolleyes:

And on top of that, Palestine was 14th century El Dorado, the mythical land where a peasant could become a king through his courage and prowess in battle, a land of opportunity. The Levant Dream, man ! That counts for much as well obviously. Never attribute to stupidity what can be explained by greed :wink:

Bah, I could go on for pages.

TL;DR version : don’t try to judge History with modern sensibilities. thousand yard stare You just don’t know man, you weren’t there !

279

Convince me not to convert to Islam

I don’t proselytize or anti-proselytize, but on the negative side you have surely considered:

Bad clothes
Needing to bend over a lot
Having to tolerate Cat Stevens

The good thing is you don’t need or want to go door-to-door for converts. And you can piss off kanicbird.

280

Well, it’s been several days, can we get an update on how you are or are not enjoying your new lifestyle?