Sure. But what are words? They are representations of thoughts. The way we talk about things affects how we, and those we speak with, think about them. Using words like “queer” and “nigger” makes maintaining prejudice easier.
Wow… I was way off. So then, I was probably off on what F-Word means too, which is really bizarre to me, because I’ve never heard F-Word used in reference to any word other than fuck. I remembered seeing some controversy about Glee, but I don’t watch it, and never cared enough to even figure out what the controversy was.
I guess this just goes to reinforce one of my points about how using “-word" increases confusion. In a case like this where the "-word” phrase isn’t ubiquitous, like it is with n-word or, at least I thought, f-word, it makes it impossible to understand what the outrage is about.
I remind you of my point about the word gay.
Fo’ shigger.
I have to disagree with you here. The words represent concepts, and just discussing a concept doesn’t mean we believe it. To argue that using words like nigger, when the concept it represents is relevant to the conversation, makes it easier seems to follow the same sort of logic that watching violent movies makes it easier to be violent. I agree that we shouldn’t just throw words around, but saying n-word instead of nigger doesn’t avoid the concept that we’re trying to discuss, so how is it any better?
In either case, we’re still discussing the inherent racism that calling someone a nigger implies. And even if we managed to completely irradicate the word from the lexicon, it won’t make racism go away, and it won’t make it any more difficult to express racist ideas in an offensive way. In fact, I still hear racist things said from time to time, but I can’t remember the last time the word nigger was included in any of them.
That is, we shouldn’t be offended because of the word, we should be offended because the person using it actually believes the concept the word represents. This is why most people aren’t offended that much when black people call eachother by it, because you just don’t see many blacks who are racist against blacks (except maybe on Jerry Springer). So, if we’re to stomp out this kind of ignorance and hatred, we can’t just kept skirting around the issue getting offended at the word, when we should be getting offended at the racist asshole using it.
Before we had kids, **Ms. Attack **and I lived in an apartment rented from a folklorist. I wound up reading some of her books about traditional beliefs in the area where we lived, one of which was that one ought not speak of f@iries, as they may hear, and come snatch one away or get one lost. There are various remedies for this, like turning your hat and jacket inside out and pulling out your pockets.
When I had kids, having read this, I wouldn’t let them speak of f@iries when out in the woods, and would make them reverse their clothes and hats if they did. It was only years later that I discovered that they thought “fairy”, as in the fair folk, was the F-Word.
No, I agree with that.
I was speaking, above, of using the words, not talking about them (or reading them in the context of, say, Huckleberry Finn). I was responding to a comment about the notion of “reclaiming” slurs; I don’t think that works.
Yes, I understand that Skald’s main interest in the thread is in referring to the word, not using it as a reference. I’m making a tangential point.
I don’t think that’s the same thing.
“Gay” has a foundation as a positive word, and was chosen by gay people, for themselves, as a positive. Modern pejorative use of the word may be rooted in its reference to sexuality, but that linkage is weakening.
Efforts to claim (not reclaim) “queer” and “nigger” seem to have almost the opposite effect in the mind of the bigot, reinforcing the image of the subject people as Other.
Well… statistically speaking it is a deviation from the norm. There’s nothing wrong with that of course, but you can’t say it’s “normal”.
You’re missing my point entirely. So long as the social attitudes of homophobia and racism exists, people will find a way to express them. If people think that being gay is ooky, then whatever word is used as shorthand for “homosexual” will be used in an insulting manner. Hell’s bells, the same is true of the various words for black people. Negro. Colored. Black. Nigger. I guarantee you you can find people who will use any of those insultingly.
I haven’t written anything about “reclaiming” the word nigger. I just don’t like pretending that words are magic, or that saying “the n-word” does anything useful. But even pretending that I had, I think there’s a point to no refusing to say the word. When homosexuals began using queer in a positiive manner, they were assering their own power rather than letting the word have power over them.
By that argument, left-handed people are not normal.
You are using a specialized vocabulary with a word in common usage.
And I believe I know the process by which each of those words became objectionalbe - except Negro; I thought that was just old-fashioned.
I can’t say the word ‘nigger’; it just doesn’t come out right.
Quoth Martin Hyde:
What about in reference to a black person, but not in an otherwise insulting way? If, for instance, I said “My friend Skald is a black guy”, that isn’t insulting (well, it could be, depending on context, tone of voice, etc., but it isn’t inherently). If I were to substitute “nigger” in that sentence, does it become inherently insulting? Literally, of course, “nigger” means the same thing as “black guy”, so one might argue that the two sentences carry the same meaning, but of course the reaction to them is likely to be completely different.
You’re black. You can say it however and whenever you like. Being a member of the group entitles you to that privilege.
Just like I, as a woman, can say cunt. It doesn’t mean men can call me that.
Just like gay people, as a group, can say fag. It doesn’t mean straight people can call them that.
Just like transgendered people, as a group, can say tranny. etc etc
What’s the Deeeaal with black people?
I mean what the hell can and can’t you call them …or amirite?
P.S
I have many black friends
Some would get offended that I, a white guy, am about to use the word nigger in an academic discussion of that very word. The people who feel nigger is inherently a bad word no matter it’s use take a view of language I just can not understand. ANY phrase can be used insultingly, and any phrase can be used non-insultingly.
It kind of makes me want to go “The other day I saw an African American with really huge lips, I swear they were pumped to a higher PSI than the tires on the car he was driving. Which was probably stolen. I hope the police bust him for dealing drugs, since all African Americans do that ya know” and ask if that is a perfectly acceptable comment just because I used african american instead of nigger. Context is king. I’d rather spend my effort getting worked up over racist thoughts, regardless of what exact word was used, than going on a crusade against one specific word.
About the only thing I can come up with is why it isn’t used on television–some people don’t pay attention to context, and it doesn’t take much for those people to work everyone else up into a frenzy, making it seem like you really are racist.
Since when does inclusion in an ethnic/gender/social group have a damn thing to do with “ownership” of a word? It doesn’t. I can walk down the street and call you a cunt, call a homosexual a fag and complete the trifecta by making fun of a tranny. It doesn’t make me a particularly pleasant or agreeable person, but I can, and my gender/race/social class has nothing to do with it, nor does yours.
Anyway, back to the original point, a quote from former Irish footballer Paul McGrath’s autobio always comes to mind (he had a Nigerian father and endured a ton of racist abuse in his life):
“And I sat there laughing. I actually didn’t mind. It didn’t bother me. Because these things don’t actually matter. Colour, religion, nationality. They’re just words. Unless, that is, people choose to hijack them and disfigure them. Which happens all too often.” (In context, the quote is regarding an awards ceremony he attended where the MC was seemingly racist in the jokes he made.)
The intent is what matters. The vast majority of my friends are black. The word is thrown around casually, it’s obviously never meant to offend. For example, one time my friend Chris and I were walking back to our apartment from one of our university’s dining halls. I had my bike with me because I had rode it over to meet him. So we see a big group of white kids approaching in the distance and decide to have a little fun. We separate until we’re close to them, then he comes running up, pretends to push me and jumps on my bike. I scream “holy shit, that nigger just stole my bike”. The reactions I got were beyond comical. A couple people screamed racist insults as he peddled away, one person offered to beat him up if he saw him and the others just talked about how bad black people are. That’s the real problem here, the actual, deep-seeded racism that exists in far too many people nowadays. Not the word nigger for crying out loud.
There is a cogent blog/essay on the New York Times site on this very subject. It is a linguistic conundrum, read on… Speech and Harm - The New York Times
Since the the “b-word” and “t-word” examples I used were real, I wanted to make it clear that this wasn’t. We were taught Huckleberry Finn in middle school or high school, and I doubt the teacher called him “n-word Jim.” Probably we just called him Jim.
I’ll second this.
Aside from quotation (from Huckleberry Finn, or whatever, I never use the word myself.
I don’t say “the N-Word”, either. But that’s not because it’s offensive – it’s just too “cute” and stupid. I don’t use “the __-Word” with any letter in that blank.
<F-word> all the idiotic <C-word>s who use the term “N-word”.
Whoever came up with the concept of political correctness should be horsewhipped through the streets.