I was considering making a dish for my GF which included pickled onions as a side (super easy…just rice vinegar and sugar).
She said she only likes cooked onions. I tried explaining that pickled onions are a kind of cooking. There is no heat but many of the changes in food we see from applying heat also happen when using acids such as vinegar. A ceviche is not raw fish, it is cooked fish. Just done with acid (usually from citrus fruits).
Am I wrong about that?
And before anyone starts, I am not pressuring her to eat things she doesn’t want. She’s all grown-up and can decide for herself what she does and does not like which is fine. That said I am not above coaxing her to try one bite and see what she thinks.
It’s more proper to call it curing than cooking, though curing accomplishes some of the things that cooking does. What the acid is doing is denaturing the proteins, which changes them from squishy to firm. That’s more than pickling does, but not everything that cooking does. It also kills bacteria and parasites, which again is a purpose of cooking.
Cooking also causes additional chemical changes such as (but not limited to) browning and the Maillard reaction. Curing isn’t going to get you those particular flavors.
When I want to persuade someone to try something like that, I make sure and figure out whether their concern is taste, texture, or safety. If I don’t adequately address what’s important to them, forget it.
Edited: since you specifically mentioned onions, it’s worth pointing out that cooked onions get a lot of their flavor from the Maillard reaction and carmelization, and pickled onions aren’t going to get anywhere close to that. It also removes the pungency. So if her objection is flavor-related then I don’t think she’ll be persuaded.
Both processes are a permanent alteration of protein structure that breaks the chemical bonds that hold the amino acids together. Both are methods of denaturation.
The end result is more or less the same, however cooking has the added benefit of destroying microorganisms, whereas citrus denaturation will only slow down or stop the growth of microorganisms.
I disagree about the pungency (well…the pungent thing that hits you is vinegar and not onion). Pickled onions are certainly far less harsh than raw onions. Maybe not quite as mellow as a well cooked onion but you won’t be accused of onion breath after eating some either. They are pretty tame.
To me the difference is cooked onions are sweet with a bit of savory if browned a little (Maillard reaction) and pickled onions are sour and sweet.
I love cooked onions but raw onions sometimes give me indigestion. I don’t know if pickled onions would too - do they have the same acidic, tangy “bite” of raw onions? That’s a taste that my body has associated strongly with future indigestion.
Well…the acid is definitely there in the form of vinegar (in this case). It tames the sharp/harsh onion taste but you have plenty of sour acid taste from the vinegar. If it is the acid that is the issue for you I’d steer clear since this goes big on the acid as most pickling’s do.
Everything I’ve read on the subject says citrus does not kill micro organisms.
This is typical of what I’ve found, just in the top results searching “ceviche micro organisms”:
“Since fish isn’t heated during the acid treatment, micro organisms aren’t killed by heat as usually is the case. The acidic environment might slow down the growth of some micro organisms, however, it does not necessarily kill the micro organisms (most will simply stop growing or slow down, but won’t necessarily be killed in this short time span).”
Cooking kills the microorganisms in the food. The exact time and temperature required depends on the food and the contamination.
Curing with acid (or salt, or other preservative) doesn’t sterilize it by any means, but it kills all the parasites plus many of the harmful microorganisms, and retards the growth of most everything else.
Here’s a research paper that talks a little about how acids can reduce (but not eliminate) some common pathogens.
Many people can’t tolerate raw onion because of something called FODMAPs*. Cooking, curing, and even rinsing in water can break these down or remove them. Sometimes curing through acid, brine, or other substances is as good as cooking. For removing pathogens it’s hard to beat cooking.
*Fermentable oligosaccharides, disaccharides, monosaccharides, and polyols are short chain carbohydrates that are poorly absorbed in the small intestine and are prone to absorb water and ferment in the colon
Heh. I just posted about acidic “cooking” in the cannibal sandwich thread … and I immediately see this thread Now to read from the top to see if anyone has discussed ceviche-style beef preparation.
If ceviche isn’t safe, then sushi and sashimi aren’t safe either. Japanese and Peruvian morgues would be overflowing with dead bodies killed by bacteria in their raw food. Is that the case? No.
Nobody should go around telling people that raw fish dishes are absolutely sterile, but it’s just hysterical nonsense to speak as if popular and commonly-eaten foods are an extreme health risk. They aren’t.
Right. I’ve eaten a lot of ceviche across Latin America, as well as sushi, sashimi, and steak tartare type dishes. Here in Panama it is an appetizer in most restaurants, is served at every reception, and is sold in every supermarket. I have never once heard of someone getting sick from eating ceviche. While it’s possible to get sick, it’s kind of like telling people in the US not to eat lettuce because people have occasionally gotten sick from it.
I didn’t post any “hysterical nonsense”. Cooking fish makes it safer. Soaking it in lime juice, much less so to not at all. Please don’t go around telling people that ceviche is cooked and therefore safe. While I’m happy to consume both, not everyone should eat or wants to eat raw fish. Telling people that ceviche is cooked and therefore safe is incorrect and potentially dangerous.
Ceviche is generally safe for the same reason most foods that are eaten raw are safe: It’s generally prepared from fresh materials. You’re just nitpicking over the reason it’s safe. While it’s true that it isn’t the curing in citrus that makes it safe, telling people that it’s not safe just because it isn’t cooked is alarmist.
Now to read from the top to see if anyone has discussed ceviche-style beef preparation.