Coordinated Terrorist Attacks

[ElvisL1ves]

What to do? Well, first, the right-wingers who moralistically condemned Clinton for sending cruise missiles into bin Laden’s Afghanistan camp, claiming that he was simply trying to distract the nation from a blowjob story, but are now braying for bin Laden’s head, are invited to simply shut the fuck up. Their judgments are not to be considered any more mature or reasoned now than they were then. If that applies to any of you, give it some thought.

Next, they can shut the fuck up about some missile shield fantasy, too. There’s no longer any more room for pretense about its usefulness, either.

Now that we’ve cleared the decks of that: Time for the rest of us to quit any of our own fantasies about technology and geography being an adequate defense against problems the rest of the world faces. Missiles and satellite reconnaissance, and electronic eavesdropping, don’t do any good against small, organized, determined bands who need only a few guns to hijack a plane with, or a credit card to get a Ryder van and a load of fertilizer, or whatever else.

It feels nice to say “Nuke 'em all!” or some such, but that isn’t an answer - it would just make us the bad guys instead. If we still stand for something special in the world, this is the test. And I certainly wish I had a little confidence in the individuals most responsible for meeting that test.

[BlackKnight]

*Originally posted by lieu *
**Send them to their fucking God. He’s a ruthless piece of shit too. **

What if “their” God turns out to be the same as yours?

As others have pointed out, “they” could be “us”.

[emarkp]

*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves *
What to do? Well, first, the right-wingers who moralistically condemned Clinton for sending cruise missiles into bin Laden’s Afghanistan camp, claiming that he was simply trying to distract the nation from a blowjob story, but are now braying for bin Laden’s head, are invited to simply shut the [deleted] up.

How about the “right-wingers” who condemned Clinton for blowing up a pharmacy, claiming it was manufacturing chemical weapons? That was the objection I heard (and made) at the time.

[waterj2]

True. Very true. But the list of suspects isn’t long. This wasn’t a bunch of crackpots mixing fertlizer. These were suicide bombers trained in flying a modern airplane, who had to hijack planes in a highly coordinated manner. I bet you there already is more than a ghost of an idea.

I’ll go you one further. I’d bet that the CIA has a list of no more than twenty terrorist organizations that have the capabilities needed to pull this off. And they probably aren’t focusing on the IRA, although they certainly have the ability. Of course, there are also governments that could be suspected as well.

Well, first, the right-wingers who moralistically condemned Clinton for sending cruise missiles into bin Laden’s Afghanistan camp, claiming that he was simply trying to distract the nation from a blowjob story, but are now braying for bin Laden’s head, are invited to simply shut the fuck up.

Of course your first concern is to find some reason to crow about anything embarassing to Republicans. No matter how grotesque it is to use an event like this for partisan grandstanding.

Also, just because Osama bin Laden is a dangerous terrorist capable of hurting the US does not mean that Clinton wasn’t motivated by political concerns surrounding the impeachment. I’m not saying anything on that matter, but todays events are stupid to use to exonerate Clinton. And it speaks volumes about your motivations.

Next, they can shut the fuck up about some missile shield fantasy, too. There’s no longer any more room for pretense about its usefulness, either.

This is completely unrelated to a missile defense shield. The missile defense plan is not intended to make the US immune from any attack. It is designed to protect the US from nuclear missiles, which are a completely different threat. By your logic, the entirety of military spending is useless because it could not protect us from this.

[Acco40]

What is wrong with the US demanding that Afghanistan, Libya, or whoever, produce Bin Laden and other suspects or face utter annihilation?

I am sick and tired of these bastard nations harboring known terrorists and us standing idly by, getting kicked in the nuts every now and again.

[Ooner]

We may not be able to stop small terrorist groups directly, but as it was said earlier, they have obviously been supported by at least one nation-state. It costs money to create this kind of destruction.

Now, the only way to stop terrorism is to make sure that nobody dares to allow it anywhere in the world. Terrorist-harboring nation-states should be forced to consider the results of their actions. So far, there have been few.

If we unleash the full force of our military power, it will send a clear message that any nation that cooperates with terrorists will be destroyed. If they think our country was hurt by the attacks today, they ain’t seen nothing yet. There will be economic impact of the WTC attack, and there is obviously major psychological damage in the short-term. However, we are still standing as a country.

Hopefully, we can show anyone even remotely responsible what devastation really is. We need to send that message loudly: If you harbor or otherwise cooperate with these terrorists, you can be assured that your life and the lives of your families will come to a violent bloody end. When the dust settles, your corpse will rest under a pile of rubble that makes the WTC remains look like nothing.

I’ve read the suggestions for coming to a peaceful solution, but it’s clear there is none. Look at your televisions, and I’m sure you see that this is not a single act that can be overcome by peaceful processes. This is a war already, that it’s not official means very little.

It’s obvious that there is no hope for peace or diplomacy anymore. This is the end of the world as it was. We can either be victims of a terrorist act, or we can step up and demonstrate that we are infinitely more powerful, more brutal, and more efficient killing machines than they could ever hope to be.

It’s a question of image: Do we want to be the good guys, refuse to sink to their level, and watch this go down passively? Or will we cut the hype and BS, admit that we’re not saintly, and once again establish that we are, and always will be, a country that is not to be fucked with.

[drachillix]

*Originally posted by ExTank *

Generally:

Let us, as a nation and a world, first take pause to bury and mourn our fellow citizens who have perished on this second Day of Infamy.

I agree and my condolences to any fellow dopers who may have lost friends and or family in this incident. I sincerely hope we didn’t lose any dopers!?!?

Then let us devote the full measure of our resources to identifying the guilty parties, and let our measured response be proportionate to not only the original act, but tempered with mercy for those not party to this incident, who have no cause against us or our way of life.

Ok crash an airliner full of their citizens into the middle of their largest city.

We have the capability to identify, locate and exterminate with precision and extreme prejudice the guilty parties; let’s not add needlessly to the loss of life. It will not return our dead to life, or vindicate us in their eyes.

No but it will make their own people think twice about supporting terrorist cells in their countries.

As far as “people dancing in the streets” in the Middle East, let them; and let us take note, as well. It speaks to their character, as a people and a nation, and we would be well advised to moderate our future contact with such peoples and nations to reflect that.

I’m sitting here with my chin on the keyboard, are you trying to say we should be happy that we win some kind of moral victory by sitting here saying

“we could turn your country into a puddle of radioactive goo but we won’t because it wouldnt be appropriate”

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

If another nation is harboring the organization responsible for this they need to be taught the price of their decision. If we do not take direct millitary action in response to an attack on our own soil then they will just start going WHEE FREE HITS ON THE US!!! The difference between a patriot and a terrorist is point of view.

Terrorism is not about killing people, its about making you feel unsafe, worried that your government cannot protect you. Eventually if a nation subjected to constant terrorist attacks does not stop them a government will be put in place that can. IANAPS (political scientist) but I always thought terrorism was designed as a tool for starting revolutions.

[rjung]

*Originally posted by ExTank *
As far as “people dancing in the streets” in the Middle East, let them; and let us take note, as well. It speaks to their character, as a people and a nation, and we would be well advised to moderate our future contact with such peoples and nations to reflect that.

I’d agree, but to a point – let’s remember that we don’t know if the people dancing in the streets are representative of the populace’s opinions as a whole. The news media, after all, are not going to waste their time shooting footage of the folks standing off to the side looking embarassed and disgraced by the dancers’ behavior (if there were any).

[rjung]

*Originally posted by waterj2 *
**

Oh, brother – I can find hundreds of nutballs in the United States who’d be whoopin’ it up and partyin’ if CNN reported the death of Khomenhi or Hussein. Or are you saying it’s acceptable because those are our nutballs?

Hussein and Khomenhi are not at all comparable to the (probably) thousands of innocent people slaughtered in cold blood this morning. Rejoicing at the death of someone who is themself a murderer is a far cry from rejoicing at the murder of thousands of innocents. **

Guess we’ll have to disagree, then – for me, the idea of celebrating anyone’s death is tacky and tasteless. Granted, I might not be upset if/when Hussein dies, but I wouldn’t whoop it up in the streets or high-five my neighbors.

[ExTank]

Acco40:

What is wrong with the US demanding that Afghanistan, Libya, or whoever, produce Bin Laden and other suspects or face utter annihilation?

Our might gives us the prerogative of making demands under threat of harm? Regardless of our grievous injury, we do not have that right. We may ask, but I don’t believe we have the right to make such demands of sovereign nations.

We do have the prerogative of adopting (or perhaps just enforcing) a policy that says any such nation that harbors international terorist is subject to a declaration of war from the United States.

I am sick and tired of these bastard nations harboring known terrorists and us standing idly by, getting kicked in the nuts every now and again.

An understandable feeling, one that I’m sure is shared by about 265,000,000 American citizens right about now. But lashing out blindly, or precipitously, and killing others indiscriminately in our quest to apprehend and punish the perpetrators is even less morally defensible than the original act.

We are supposed to be a civilized nation; let us comport ourselves as such. The eyes of the world are upon us in a way that they haven’t been in a long time. While I generally don’t give one whit about world opinion about the internal policies of the United States, I do recognize that on the world arena we must be mindful of our neighbors, and that this is being played for much higher stakes than trade or environmental treaties.

In the nuclear age, error compounded by unintended consequences can lead to something that neither Clausewitz nor Dante could envision in their worst nightmares.

[waterj2]

Well, there are degrees of tackiness and tastlessness. I generally have little tolerance for schadenfreude myself, but sometimes it pisses me off less than other times.

[Sam_Stone]

But the Taliban is a terrorist regime in the first place, and it has been aiding and abetting Osama Bin Laden for a long time, against the protests of the U.S. It is also a brutal regime that has been slaughtering its own citizens right and left and systematically erasing dozens of archaelogical treasures.

In my opinion, if Bin Laden is proven to be the perpetrator, then the Taliban government has lost its right to sovereignity. And BTW, I heard a U.S. ambassador on Canadian TV this morning say that if Bin Laden was responsible then the Taliban government would not be allowed to exist.

BTW, I’ve been listening to Canadian TV and Radio all day, and talking with my co-workers and other people. If the U.S. decides to retaliate, I’m positive you’ll have Canada’s full support.

[IzzyR]

*Originally posted by B.O. *
Izzy:

An invasion of Afghanistan would be an enormous mistake - another Vietnam, in fact.

What makes you think that? Vietnam was a disaster because they had the support of the Soviet Unioin and China. Afghanistan was a disaster for the Soviet Union, because Afghanistan had the support of the US. It was payback time, it was paid back with gusto and maybe a bit naivete. Many people were highly surprised to see our Afghani “buddies” turn their guns (and our Stingers) at us after they had kicked the Soviets out. Today’s Afghanistan is a different place. It has no friends (or none who admit it.) There is no danger to trigger WWIII, which was a big factor during Vietnam and to some extent during the Soviet/Afghani conflict. Nah, it wouldn’t be a Vietnam. Done wrong, it could be a Somalia though.

No, it was a disaster for the Soviets because the Afghanis were willing to die for their cause, more than the Russians were willing to die for theirs. Remarkably similar to the US experience in Vietnam.

This is actually a general problem that countries and people have in dealing with Muslim fundamentalist terror. If one side has people willing to die and the other does not, the first has an enormous edge.

And the Afghanis will have a lot more friends if the US invades than they presently do. Not superpower friends. But enough to help them inflict a never-ending series of US casualties.

Reasonable options available to the US are very limited.

[Semp]

*Originally posted by Sam Stone *
**BTW, I’ve been listening to Canadian TV and Radio all day, and talking with my co-workers and other people. If the U.S. decides to retaliate, I’m positive you’ll have Canada’s full support. **

If it was bin Laden, I’m sure there will be line a mile long to get a chance to sign his death warrant. The US, Canada, most every European country, India, hell, even China has problems with Islamic insurgents in their western regions. This is why I am pretty sure that should he be the one, his freedom will not last too long. And frankly, I hope the “retribution” that we all think is coming is small and surgical and deals primarily with capturing (not killing) the responsible parties. To allow bombing campaigns and large scale actions will only make the situation worse. Get the culprit(s) alive, try him/them fairly in an American court, and let laws deal with it. If a jury decides a proper punishment is, say, garrotting and leaving severed heads on pikes on the White House lawn, well, I can’t say it isn’t deserved.

[Sam_Stone]

Guys, Kabul Afghanistan is under attack.

Things are happening very quickly.

[panzermanpanzerman]

Ex-Tank,

You, my friend, are a stud of the first order, and I have a job for you if you ever want to put on that ol’ green suit again.

Thanks for your wise counsel of restraint and patience.

This organization, be it Osama Bin Laden or another organization, is extremely patient, highly imaginative, and very skilled. They are masters of the “four slow, one quick” school of Maoist insurgency warfare.

The way to beat them is to be even more patient than they are.

They will, of course, be counting on American overreaction to itself fuel Anti-American sentiment, and to provide fresh and enthusiastic cannon fodder for their ranks from among those who feel so downtrodden that they have nothing left to lose.

I see no reason to let them win that little victory. Being impetuous and clumsy in pursuit of vengeance will not serve U.S. interests. It will only create more terrorists in the long run.

The key to the solution, long term, is to pursue policies that separate the militants from the support of the people–not drive them together by being rash. We must also strive to hasten the day when Palestinians and other revisionist peoples feel they have more to lose by war than they have to gain.

And key to this will be the rebuilding of our human intelligence networks, which have been deteriorating since the Carter administration. And that’s going to take years.

So be it. Patience. We have friends in Afghanistan–mujahedeen veterans-- I’m sure, somewhere, who don’t like what’s going on there, and may help us with information at the critical time. No good sniper would rush the shot and spook his real target.

Four slow, one quick. Patience.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

For the most part, I agree with ExTank’s masterful statement: As difficult as it is under the circumstances, the people and the government need to keep cool heads.

FWIW, I think Dopers and all citizens should keep open minds about the identity of the monsters involved. Even if terrorist groups in the Middle East were involved, I think they had to have had inside help from a few rotten apples in this country. I am not expert on aviation by any means, but the terrorists seemed to have a lot of knowledge about our planes and air routes.

Frankly, I find it incredible that a government, even Syria Iraq and North Korea – the first three countries that sprang to my mind this morning when I heard the news – would sponsor this. Any government, no matter how much its leaders hate the U.S., knows good and damn well this is an act of war and the American people will be wanting blood.

As for the Dopers commenting on the Palestinians dancing in the street: their folly hurts their own cause. I would say that after today, Israel can do pretty much it pleases and there will be little, if any, restraints imposed by the U.S. I suspect it will be sometime before prominent American leftists like Sen. Clinton call for a Palestinian state.

If Osama bin Laden and his henchmen are responsible for this, then the Afghani government should be told: hand them over or provide evidence they have fled the country, or prepare to cease to exist. Frankly, ExTank, the Taliban’s destruction of Buddhist shrines and artwork reminds me too much of the Krystallnacht, and I am inclined to agree with Sam Stone’s assessment of the situation. Had they the population, industrial base and agricultural base, I have little doubt those motherfuckers in the Taliban would launch a jihad on Asia and then the rest of the world. Given the way I feel today, I would not hestitate recommending dropping a nuclear device on Afghanistan’s capital should bin Laden be proven responsible and should the Afghani government decide to harbor him.

However, it would be wise to first get facts. Remember the first principle of American jurisprudence: one is innocent until proven guilty.

Having said that, I cannot imagine any other group than bin Laden’s organization being responsible for this. I don’t see the IRA being behind this because of all the American support it receives and because of the ties between the U.S. and Eire. Many of our own nutballs are crazy enough to pull something like this off, but I think they lack the resources and brilliant minds capable of planning such a feat.

One thing, though: When we determine guilt, those SOBs die like the mad dogs they are. Shrub should tell the world: no matter where they hide and where they run we are going to take them down.

[jack_ss]

Fmr Secretary fo State Eagleburger (Geo H. W. Bush administration) was just on CNN saying that we should retaliate immediately, and the people we hit ned not be directly responlible for the execution or planning of these acts, but people associated with them. I guess he has friends in Isreal’s gov’t.

According to someone (I forget who) on NPR a couple hours ago, this could be the work of Bin Laden, Sadam Hussein, or Rahman (the Egyptian) or all of the above working together.

Seems like some people of influence are shooting their mouths off with out thinking.

MISSILE FIRE IN KABUL!
CNN video shows tracer bullets and rockets, could this be the response Eagleburger was talking about?

[IzzyR]

There are reports that Kabul is already being bombed. If true, I really hope it is based on accurate information, and not on the need to take immediate action. Better more deliberate and right than hastier and wrong.

[tracer]

emarkp wrote:

[hijack]

Um, you might want to forego using that particular phrasing for right now.