50 years ago people said exactly the same thing. As a matter of fact, 50 years ago, juvenile delinquency was something of a national craze; there has probably never been a time when people were MORE afraid of poorly behaving kids as the 1950s.
Really, it’s pure crap. Kids are pretty much the same today as they ever were.
Slight change of question-
With any luck (I’m currently waiting for replies from grad schools), in a few years I should be in the position to be a lecturer at the college level.
Assuming that there are no rules specifically preventing me from engaging in corporal punishment, would those who have argued in this thread for the use of corporal punishment at lower levels of education approve of me engaging in this at the university level, and, if not, can you give any sort of a reason for why there should be a difference?
I’m all for corporal punishment as long as I’m the one administering it.
I’m not sure how well CP works for children in the here and now but I’m pretty sure (for boys anyway) it builds character in the long run.
In other words: I’m not raising my boys to be pussies.
I’m sure I’ll get flamed for saying that but it’s how I feel.
The idea behind “it worked it the past” is that society worked with corporal punishment, and we don’t know how will work if we suddenly take it away.
I’m certainly not going to flame you, because I don’t think I’m in any position to tell other people how to raise their kids, nor to judge the choices they make. All I’m going to say is that I couldn’t disagree more with the premise that CP builds character.
My parents were divorced when I was young, so I spent substantial times both with my father and stepmother (who did not believe in corporal punishment), and with my mother and stepfather (who did). My stepfather believed in the same basic premise that you espouse above. But getting spanked didn’t teach me anything of value. It taught me, from an early age, to think of my stepfather as stupid and weak. He had no other tools, no other weapons. He was bigger than I, so he got to be “right” in the short run, but I took nothing he said more seriously than the next five minutes. I learned to avoid being caught, but not to care about right or wrong; who was my stepfather, who couldn’t defend his point with anything but his brawn, to tell me anything about right and wrong? This was building character? Nah.
My father, on the other hand, never raised his hand to me in all the years I can remember. But when he was angry, I learned things, because the nature of the punishments he handed down - and the way he spoke about the things I had done - made me intuitively understand why I was wrong. My stepfather was right because he was stronger than I; my father was right because he was right.
This was the principle on which I based my own behavior as an adolescent and an adult. “Not being a pussy” isn’t about throwing punches every time someone agrees with you; it’s about standing up for and doing what you believe to be right even if you can’t (or won’t) beat up the people who disagree with you. Defining “not a pussy” as the willingness to use violence as an aggressive tool (as opposed to as a defensive measure, which I support and have done in my lifetime more than a few times), makes jerky kids, IMO. And kids who have a problem: how do they handle conflict when the other person involved is bigger than they? How did my stepfather handle it when my brother turned out to be 6’4" and built like a truck? He had no tools; he couldn’t parent without the threat of violence.
That’s weak.
Nicely done, storyteller!
Ditto.
Not only nicely done as a post, but nicely done as an example of your point. You could have gotten verbally violent against (“flamed”) SHAKES. Instead you (more productively, I think), remained calm and rational and pointed out very nicely why he’s wrong in a way that will convince more of us that a verbal knock-out would.
I know which of the two of you I respect more at this moment, and which one has shown true character, and it ain’t the tough guy.
storyteller I’m sorry your SD was such a jerk.
I think you have to realize though you’re talking about extremes.
CP and having a cool reasonable head? One does not necessarily preclude the other.
When my Dad used to whip my ass he would always tell me goto my room and wait for him. It would usually be a good ten minutes or so before he came in there.-And GAWD what a horrible ten minutes it was. I think the waiting was actually worse than the ass whup’n itself! At the time I used to think it was some sort of sick twisted mind game he was playing with me.
As an adult I now know what that ten minutes was for. It was so he could get his thoughts together for his speech to explain to me why what I did was wrong and also (if the situation applies) to calm his own nerves down so he didn’t actually hit me in anger.
I believe in CP.
It’s not about teaching that somebody bigger and stronger can hit you; it’s about teaching that somebody older and wiser can control you in a way you may not like at the time, and for your own good. Any punishment is going to be an adversarial situation. Some kids are scarred for life from corporal punishment, and some are thankful for it. The same goes for non-corporal punishments - some kids suffer a whole world of emotional abuse where a smack on the arse might have been better.
Analogies with prisoners are flawed too. You don’t smack a prisoner, but you also don’t lock a child up for twenty years in a building full of hardened criminals. Kids need a slap sometimes because they can’t understand subtler forms of punishment. That said, just because it’s not subtle doesn’t mean it has to be harsh.
My CP with my stepson:
Issue warning.
Carry it out.
Wipe the slate clean - no grudges.
In any event, he’s nine now, and I haven’t smacked him since he was about six. This is partly because his behaviour has improved, and partly because he’s old enough that I can get through to him with just a tone of voice. The little bastard still seems to love me, so I don’t think I’ve scarred him.
I should hasten to clarify - my stepdad wasn’t really a jerk. He certainly wasn’t beating us up or doing anything to qualify as abusive. He was a nice guy in some ways. He just lacked the wit and strength to back his opinions with anything other than force.
A cool reasonable head can absolutely go along with corporal punishment. My point is that from the standpoint of the child, it makes absolutely no difference what the mental state of the parent (or other authority figure) might be while the spanking (or whatever) is going on. All the child cares about is: (A) I did something wrong; and (B) this adverse experience (ouch, my butt hurts) is the consequence of that. My argument is that in most cases, one of two things happens then:
A. The kid, if he or she is impressionable, learns that when someone does something you don’t like, you hurt them. Their worldview becomes: discussions are fine, reasons are fine, staying cool-headed is fine, but the ultimate trump card is “can I kick your ass?” Dad can kick my ass, so he’s always right. When these kids grow up, they will continue this sort of posturing. It’s particularly bad with boys - they tie their masculinity into some vague idea of “I can kick X’s ass, so I’m a better man, and Y can kick mine, so he’s better than I am.” Also, the undesirable behavior? They will refrain from it just exactly as long as someone’s around to hit them for doing it. After that, it will go back to the original lesson: who has the trump card of physical violence? Is it me? Than I can do whatever I want.
Or…
B. The kid, if he or she is somewhat independent-minded, will quietly lose respect for you. He or she will slowly come to realize that you can’t engage them, and win the battle, solely on the basis of being right, and then nothing you tell them will matter anymore. The punishments my father handed down were always closely and logically tied to the nature of my offense; this made them sensible to me. Once he had convinced me that I was wrong (he always did), and that the punishment was logical and reasonable (he always did), he had won - because I would no longer do the wrong thing in the first place, because I had accepted both that it was wrong and that the negative consequences were just and reasonable.
My stepfather, on the other hand? Well, it’s not like I hated him. I didn’t think he was a jerk. I thought he was weak. I was seven years old and he couldn’t beat me on an intellectual level without having to rely on his superior size? What a pussy.
Absolutely I am in favor of it. It works.
The rules for “swats” should be posted clearly. Parents should sign a waiver granting permission. Swats should be administered ASAP after the infraction.
Cite? Beginning with a definition of “works”, please. And “It”, while you’re at it. We’ve heard a lot of different versions of corporal punishment in this thread.
Don’t be such a ditz! Everybody knows that violence to the rectal area is a sensible response to misbehavior. Next thing you’ll probably say is that having a prison system and capital punishment don’t deter crime.
Hippie.
I once had a criminal justice professor lecture that controlled electric shocks administered via a rectal probe and done under medical supervision would be more effective than the current juvenile justice system :dubious: . I swear I’m not making this up.
Co-eds baring their bottoms waiting for the onslaught of the paddle…(pant)…then the sound of paddle hitting bare flesh…(pant, pant)…oh, you weren’t talking about corporal punishment in college.
OK, then take your narrow minded rules and…well, swat them away…or something.
When I was at school 40 years ago, we had corporal punishment.
The Head used to beat you with a cane. Supposedly there was a punishment book, but in those days parents never questioned teachers.
I recall one boy who was literally beaten every week. He used to cry in the toilets for half-an-hour afterwards. Looking back, he may have been mentally retarded. He used to lose his temper and the teacher would send him for a beating.
We had some curious school rules, which led to punishments:
One teacher used to throw a wooden board rubber at pupils who got answers wrong.
Another would beat you if you forgot your sports kit.
Bullying was rife.
I’m now a teacher myself (17 years - how times fly!).
Our school doesn’t have corporal punishment.
We can give essays (on a relevant topic) and detentions (the pupils catch up work in these).
The Headmaster can suspend or expel.
We have a bullying code, worked out with the pupils.
We have a School Council.
I like my job and I would hate it if someone told me to beat kids.
There are so many stupid and mentally unstable teachers and administrators that this would be a very risky strategy. The kids who would get punished would be the ones who rubbed the teachers the wrong way. No teacher would have the balls to ever paddle a minority kid, but if a wimpy white boy couldn’t sit still and his parents refused to put him on meds, he’d be in big trouble.
Reminds me a story I saw on 60 Minutes about 5 or 10 years ago. A dopey looking kid couldn’t stop laughing in class so his teacher paddled him to the point of leaving scars. The parents sued the teacher and lost because the jurors were just as fucking stupid as the teacher. The kid couldn’t go back to the school after the incident. I don’t remember what else happened.
Yep. Everyone who has recently received corporal punishment at school has been white.