Corporal Punishment in Schools

Great Debates
21

Oh, what a sheltered life we lead. I graduated from public high school in rural Louisiana in 1991 and it was perfectly legal and common to get paddled. I think that I got paddled myself 5 or 6 times between 7th and 12th grade. I am fairly certain that it is still legal and common although parents can sign a form if they don’t want their children paddled. No one ever did though.

I don’t see what the big deal is. The punishment is administered right after the offense which is a good thinh IMHO. The offense might be skipping class or causing and excessive disruption in class. It is over fairly quickly and get the point across so that the behavior usually isn’t repeated very soon. It doesn’t truly hurt or cause physical harm in any case that I saw. You could opt out of a paddling yourself but you had to trade it in for another punishment that in my mind would be harder on you mentally and academically. The typical punishment was 3 paddlings but you could opt for 3 days of suspension or 3 days of detention instead. Everyone always chose to take the 3 licks.

Our teachers had their own ritual for paddling. Most coaches were very proud of their paddles and some had extra big ones with holes drilled in it for extra effectiveness. Some teachers made you sign the paddle before you got it so it was fun to look at the paddle on the teacher’s desk and see all of the names. Coach Knight always talked about “making an appointment to see the Long Board ™” whenever any acted up. I think that an am getting a nostalgia tear in my eye.

22

(I had a brilliant post to this thread yesterday, which appears to be lost in the aether. Oh well.)

The paddle was phased out of my public school system about the time I was in eighth grade, 1989-90. Before then, paddling was an everyday occurrence. (Not for me personally, but at least for somebody.) Around that time, laws were passed requiring documentation and paperwork to the degree that spanking was far too cumbersome to be effective, so it effectively disappeared.

I’m not comfortable with the idea of spanking kids, exactly. According to my mother, though, a sixth-grade teacher for 26 years, some kids anymore don’t respond to anything else. There is no punishment the school can hand out that has any effect on them–they don’t do extra work, if you call their parents they come up and take the kid’s side, and if you suspend/expel them the parents threaten lawsuits because the school is failing in its responsibility to educate their child so the school ends up sending the kid to a “special school” somewhere on their dime, or else the kid ends up right back in the classroom.

The weird thing is, I can’t imagine parents saying, “No teacher is going to lay a hand on my child,” at the time. The prevailing attitude was that if you got one at school, and your parents found out about it, you’d get another one at home. (And remember–I’m not talking about the “good old days”, this was twelve years ago. It was backwoods Kentucky, and they do tend to be a few years behind general societal trends, but not that far.)

If anyone has a good solution, aside from restructuring society from top to bottom, I’d love to hear it.

Dr. J

23

Martiju - yes, Edinburgh (hence the name). The word “thwapping” I learnt at snopes.com, however. :slight_smile:

I was also wondering about this whole idea of smacking only those children whose parents consent to it. To me this is weird: you would have a number of children who would know they might get hit for misbehaviour, and another number in the same classroom who would know they would not. Wouldn’t it be more difficult to maintain discipline given this inconsistency?

Embra

24

Oh, I’ve see teachers hit kids. It was not allowed in the NYC public schools while I was there, and if there was ever a public school system that needed to paddle a few kids, it was the NYC system.

Which is not to say that I think schools should paddle my children. I do not hit my kids and I sure as hell don’t want anyone else doing it either. My kids know that their body is theirs to love or abuse and should not be subject to physical insults from anybody-- including me, any SO they may have, teachers and whoever else they may run into during their lives. This is how I am raising my children. Other people may believe differently-- more power to them.
If a school is going to institute corporal punishment, there should be clear rules as to what is allowed and how and when it should be administrated to avoid abuse. Here’s my own personal anecdote:

I was once hit by a third grade substitute teacher with the metal end of a ruler. She cut me and I bled all over the place. In fact, it was not me who was misbehaving, but a totally out of control classmate whom the teacher feared. So she took out her fustrations on me. I took my bleeding arm outside, walked home and explained to my shocked grandmother what I was doing home in the middle of the school day. Let’s just say that that particular substitute teacher was no longer subbing at my school at the end of that day.

25

Ah, I get it now Embra! My gf’s sister was the first person I ever heard say wean (she’s from NI) - being a lowly southerner I had to ask for a translation!
Have I just hijacked my own thread?!

backs away quietly and leaves the room…

26

True. That’s the way it was when I was growing up. It didn’t work, though. It was the same kids who were getting “double jeopardy” most of the time.

The corporal punishment would continue until the kid was big enough to fight back…then it amazingly stopped…and the teacher/principal/counselor/whoever would choose to talk about it rather than try to physically “correct” the behavior.

I think that’s why I saw many fewer instances of corporal punishment in high school as opposed to the lower grades (I grant that high school students are more mature, anyway–and that may account for fewer infractions). The teachers usually had a feeling about which students they could physically dominate, and which ones would clean their clocks. They usually guessed right, but not always.

27

legal types - seriously, if you took any of these cases to a court on a basic assault charge, how could it fail? does the law in these particular states/counties have special provisions to allow for teachers punishing kids? what’s the story?

28

Well, it’s gone to the Supreme Court, most recently in Inghram v. Wright, in 1979. The court ruled, basically, that schools act in loco parentis (In the place of the parent) and therefore reasonable physical punishment “for the proper education of the child and for the maintenance of group discipline.” is allowable.

In those states and school districts that allow corporal punishment, (I know Missouri, Arkansas and Texas do, and I’m pretty sure more states do) it wouldn’t count as assault for the same reason that parents spanking their kids doesn’t count as assault.

29

I went to elementary school in the 60s and my parents made it quite clear to the school that I was not to be spanked or paddled. My father said, “if she acts up, you tell me and I’ll decide if she needs to be spanked–but don’t you dare lay a hand on my kid.”

My father was born in 1911 and my mother in 1925; both were raised in very rural Pennsylvania.

If I had children, I’d feel the same way as my parents.

30

Maybe I’m just big for my size (hah), but by the 7th grade I was as large as all my male teachers and laeger than my female ones, and with the exception of my gym coach, could almost certainly hold even physically. Also, I’ve always been a foot-to-the-groin and teeth-to-the-arm type fighter. Anyone hear of my spiritual brother/sister students who punished the teachers right back?

31

Me.

Long story short…another kid is screwing around in class during a movie. The teacher tells me to leave. As I walk out the door, he shoves me in the back. I stumble across the hall and hit my shoulder on a locker. I come off the locker and clip him on the chin causing him to fall back into the room.

Just so happens that the assistant principal sees the whole thing, so I got the rest of the day off “to calm down.” No suspension or anything.

32

Corporal punishment isn’t common in Western Australia anymore, AFAIK. For all I know it could be illegal.

For punishment, we were given time out in high school. Usually the eighth graders were sent to a twelfth year class, and vice versa. Both situations were equally embarrassing. Three time outs in close succession would earn you a suspension from school. Which wasn’t fun because it was a tiny country town, so if you were suspended and decided to go into town for some fun, EVERYONE would know about it and you’d end up in more trouble.

But its still common over here in Japan. Not in primary school, but once you get to junior and senior high then things get really strict.

33

Heck, I was still getting swatted through the ninth grade! This was around 1980. I remember a lot of the teachers and vice principles took pride in their paddles. Some were wooden, with holes drilled through to make it hurt worse. Some were rubber. One I remember was even cut out of an automobile tire.

I remember my vice principle in the ninth grade even had a pair of hands painted on the top of his desk, near the front. Swat-ees would be required to bend over and put their hands on the painted hands, before receiving their swats.

I even had one teacher who would take a running start before swatting a victim.

34

What cracks me up is people always ask me about Catholic school-“did the nuns beat you?”

And they barely even touched us. Maybe a swat now and then, but after about, oh, 1990, not even that.

35

Oh yeah, I remember in one of my classes in Sunday school, the teacher would allow her nearly adult son to “knuckle” kids in the head who were misbehaving.

36

A teacher at my school recently resigned after she hit a kid when he refused to give her some cards she was trying to take up. On a side note, I think the rules against cards are complete BS, but he was playing in the middle of class from what I understand.

My chemistry teacher hits kids lightly and sprays them with a water bottle some times, but it’s always in a some what facetious manner. If someone really pisses her off she’ll write them up.

I know that in elementary school the principle threatened to paddle a kid after getting permission from his parents.

37

when I was in school, it was definately legal. I graduated in 1983. I think it should be now, some kids just do not respond to time outs. If the school asked me to sign permision I would, though I doubt my son would ever need it. Other forms of discipline work well on him, most of the time.

38

It’s illegal in schools to the point that teachers have not only lost most of their authority but have to worry about getting sued if they defend themselves against a student attack.

I say bring it back!

Ever since they took it out of the schools and started this no hitting of children, we have been plagued by obnoxious, rude and down right dangerous kids who fear nothing since they know that no one can touch them so long as they are kids without getting into a pile of trouble.

When I was a kid they used corporeal punishment and I got whacked once and it did not turn me into a sniveling, broken, depressed kid. In fact, I later had to explain to my folks why I got spanked and they agreed with the principal and I nearly got another whipping at home. It taught me a whole lot about respecting my elders and obeying authority. Back then, you could yell at a kid all you wanted, but if he chose to disobey you, what could you do?

You warmed his pants is what and did a good job of it too and he listened next time, didn’t he? No beatings, but just a stinging whipping or a hard slap or two. My Daddy popped me across the mouth once when I mouthed back at him and stung my lips and I learned real quick not to mouth off at him again. We did not go running to the cops about being slapped either because the cops would have laughed and dad would have given us a good spanking for being so stupid as to get them involved.

Then again, back then if you ran from the cops and they got you, there was no gentle coddling your ass until you got to see a lawyer or shoved in the jail. They might throw you around a bit for endangering them and others in the chase and convince you that it wasn’t just a lark. If you were a kid and got caught stealing a car, not only would the cops not be real nice, but your dad would start spanking your arse in front of them when he found out and the cops would approve.

In my day, there were few car thefts and even fewer done just for joy riding. Kids did not sneak out at night to ‘hang wit da homeys’ until all hours of the morning either because Paw, if he caught them, would tan their hides and they would think twice about sneaking out again. Plus the cops, seeing some 11 or 14 year old out after midnight, picked them up and took them home and the folks were pissed and spanked the kid soundly.

No kids threatened any teacher in school either, because if they did, then the principal and/or the coach would descend upon him and drag him out of the class by force, haul his ass to the office and call his folks or the cops and keep him there by force. The coach was not scared to deck some 6 foot tall, 250 pound belligerent bully and if you hit him, he was not constrained by law to keep him from using enough violence to contain you. We had football and big basketball players who were afraid of our coaches if they got called to settle things because they could hurt you seriously if you went too far.

None did go too far.

I have no problem with there being corporeal punishment in the schools.

39

Omnivore: I’m glad I didn’t have your father. I doubt both of us would have lived to celebrate by 18th birthday.
Corporal punishment is effective, when it can be pulled off. What do you do to the student who is as large as the teacher, or the parent? Would your gym coach been able to deal with someone trying to bite a chunk of flesh out of his arm (me)? Very few people are, including one of my friends, who has 2 black belts. Yes, friends. I do have friends, amazingly.
On a related note, do remember that a disturbing percentage of kids are armed. A school shooting in self-defence is a quite horrific image.

40

Cite?

IIRC, corporal punishment is still legal in 38 states, and anyone has the right to protect themselves if they’re attacked.

**

They existed in abundance in the schools I attended. Corporal punishment didn’t seem to have any positive effect on them, nor did it seem to reduce the numbers of “screwballs.” They get hit at school, they get hit at home–they get used to getting hit. That’s also how they learn to react to confrontational situations.

**

What can you do now? If you smack him, will that cease the misbehavior? My experience says no.

**

This teaches a lot of respect for the law, doesn’t it?

**

I think the cops still do pick up kids that are violating curfew. They sure do around here.

**

The teacher I decked was also the wrestling coach. He probably outweighed me by 100 lbs. As for “seriously hurting” someone…excessive force isn’t legal, even for the police.

**

Then you can’t complain if your child comes home with bruises.