FudgeNugget writes: “Earl, read the entire thread before asking questions that may have already been addressed before.”
Fair enough. All I wanted was some clarification. You stated previously (in the post you so kindly provided me) that “I don’t mean any offense to people with ADD…” Then, in the post I so rudely responded to before, you seem to have implied that you “don’t believe in” psychiatric diagnoses like ADD. Was that your intent?
That’s real motivation 
What do you think would work well?
Don’t misquote me. I said I don’t really “believe” in some disorders that we’ve come up with in recent years, which means I don’t put much faith in diagnoses like that. When I said I didn’t mean any offense, I said it so people wouldn’t take it the wrong way, also so I wouldn’t get my ass kicked.
FudgeNugget writes: “Don’t misquote me.”
I was neither misquoting you nor taking your quotations out of context. My interpretation of your quotes may not have been accurate (although I think it was accurate), but said interpretation was made in good faith.
Forgive me if I’m misquoting you, but you seem to be implying that you “don’t” buy into conventional views on ADD. Do you have any reasoning here? After all, you would be taking on many in the psychiatric community, even as you admit to not having attended the “insanely expensive medical schools” at which many psychiatrists studied.
**
You don’t necessarily even have to send a child to his room, you know. If he’s that defiant, make him take a seat in the room you’re in and study while you’re paying bills, cooking dinner, or what have you. Send him to a relative’s house, or have a babysitter watch him until you get home from work if you can’t trust him. In my opinion, though, if things have gotten that bad in the first place, where a child refuses to accept punishment, you do have problems.
**
That is painfully sad. People who can’t take the time to parent shouldn’t have children in the first place. It does add credence to my belief that spanking is just lazy parenting. “Just hit the kid, 'cause it’ll save time that you could be spending on yourself!”
I believe that parenting is a sacred trust: by having a baby, you have agreed to prepare him for life in our society. It’s not something you can do properly on the quick. If you don’t have time for doing it correctly, you shouldn’t raise children at all.
**
Be that as it may, it’s my belief that years of crappy parenting can lead to character disorders which can be corrected with proper treatment, and I don’t mean drugs. A counselor can properly identify the trouble spots, and can help guide parents into communicating in a meaningful way with their child.
People don’t just go to therapy for diagnosed disorders. They sometimes go just to talk about issues which they’re havibg difficulties with and learn how to deal with them. For a kid, it can be life changing. These people are trained in how do deal with problems in ways that the average parent cannot. Also, kids sometimes find it easier to talk to a stranger than to their parents about their troubles.
**
If you mean mowing lawns: good. If you are saying they might resort to illegal means, then the problems you face with such a child are more severe, and definately require outside assistance.
**
Well, if you’d been doing it all along, you wouldn’t have that problem, but that’s not the point. The point is that any child can be reached. It just takes time and effort. Again, if the child remains hostile, talking to a therapist is in order.
**
Jesus Christ, if he starts busting up the place, I’m calling the cops. The average parent isn’t able to deal with a kid who has such serious rage issues. Destroying furniture because the Nintendo was taken away for a week is not, by any means, a normal reaction. This kid is headed for deep trouble unless immediate measures are taken.
**
Well, I do know that spanking a drunk won’t accomplish much.
**
Of course they can. Any living creature can grasp the concept of “If I do {this} I feel pain.” Many dogs have been trained this way, and it is effective. If you shock a dog every time he tries to eat, he’ll starve to death in front of a full bowl of food. In the wild, dogs use a form of corporal punishment at times, biting or clawing the offender. So, yes, dogs can understand being hit.
What the manuals teach is that there’s a * better way. * You can train just as well without hitting the animal, and in some cases better. It’s more effective to praise good behavior lavishly, and punish misbehavior by other, non-physical, means.
Children are similar in that aspect. The more praise and awards you give for good behavior, the more the child will want to behave. For example, I was grounded if my grades dipped, or a priviledge taken away, but if my grades were high, I was treated to a trip to the bookstore when report cards came out. (You can substitute any kind of treat.) Every kid should be praised if he does well. After a guest leaves, tell the kid you were proud of how polite he was to Mrs. Smith, and give him a hug. Thank him for cleaning up his room, and for any considerate things that they do. Surprise them with a trip to the ice cream store because he’s been so good lately.
Approval is addictive. Children become hostile when parents don’t give them enough attention, or only notice them to punish misbehavior. The more positive attention you can give your child, the more you will see them working to get that approval.
**
What?
As I said, if your child has serious hostility issues, some kind of family therapy may be in order.
Which is an extraordinarily good reason for a parent not to ignore discipline until the child is out of control and then resort to physical punishment on a teenager. My son is nearly thirteen.I might be able to win a struggle with him now. In two years, he’ll be able to kick my ass.
:rolleyes: So young, yet so conservative. 
Was your “plenty of research” a few viewings of Reefer Madness?
The vast majority of teenagers that I know are great people - they have regular jobs (some hold down two), are involved in extracurricular activities and make good grades. Am I living in a complete parallel Brady Bunch universe here or what? 
This is my reasoning:
We’ve established that spanking should not be a first resort by any means, and, in your opinion, not a resort at all.
In your hypothetical situation, what if the kid ignores you, walks away, goes to his room and locks the door? As you said, if a child refues to accept punishment, you have problems.
[QUOTE]
**
That is painfully sad. People who can’t take the time to parent shouldn’t have children in the first place. It does add credence to my belief that spanking is just lazy parenting. “Just hit the kid, 'cause it’ll save time that you could be spending on yourself!”
I believe that parenting is a sacred trust: by having a baby, you have agreed to prepare him for life in our society. It’s not something you can do properly on the quick. If you don’t have time for doing it correctly, you shouldn’t raise children at all.
**
Very true, I agree.
I disagree. I think kids find it easier to talk to their friends, than either parents or strangers. However, more often that not, many friends are bad influences.
In what way would counselors deal with problems after identifying them?
You have to realize that some parents don’t have the means for expensive psychiatrists, therapy sessions, nor the care or motivation. As you said, lazy parents shouldn’t have had a kid in the first place, and I agree; but its happened, and its still happening, so what do we do about it?
Fair enough. What until the cops arrive?
I meant the next day, what would you do to punish something like that?
With the dog example, why can’t the same thing work with children? My father told me that back in Taiwan, the teachers used corporal punishment; for example, one smack with a ruler on your palm for every point you got off on whatever assignment. And this isn’t counting what you’re parents are going to do to you when they find out. Here in America, nothing happens. Your grades slip, your careless parents do nothing, you’re too caught up fantasizing what kind of future you’ll have without considering how you’re going to accomplish it…
At a later stage in life, children tend to stay as far away from their parents as possible. They’re a source of embarassment in a way (pulling up to Joe Schmoe’s house and barging into an all-night party in a bathrobe, curlers and slippers and picking up your kid at 10:00 PM. Sure, you did it in his/her best interest, you don’t want him/her to get date-raped or anything, but will your kid thank you? Likely not, he/she’ll be miserable. Try to make them understand what you did and why? They’ll likely think you’re being overprotective, etc). Less considerate acts at home, more hanging out with friends
If you go outside, find a dog, and kick it in the stomach, I’d expect it to bite you.
As I said, if things have already happened, then you can’t change what’s in the past.
You are a father, you are the head of the house, the dominant figure. You enforce the rules. You went through childhood, you went through schooling, you got a job, you work you slave you wash you clean and whatever else you may be doing that can possibly get you a little depressed after a hard day’s work. When your kid gets pissed off and tries to beat you up two years later because you won’t let him go to the movies after his grades are dropping, you’re getting phone calls, he’s getting detentions and suspensions, you will NOT put up with that kind of nonsense.
People, get your kids in line. If not spanking, if not coporal punishment, then be a proper parent. Raise your kid right. If you’re not going to, don’t have one. If you’re careless and end up with a kid you didn’t mean to have, deal with it. Commit the time and effort you owe, because that’s part of being a parent.
No, whatever that is. I looked around at the DEA, NIDA, DARE and a few other sites that provided government info, as well as a few independent scientific studies. I don’t trust the personal sites because none of them are guaranteed to provide factual information, they provide opinion. I ignored anything that I thought to be ridiculous. This is an example of side effects from the NIDA:
Short term effects I disregarded because they would only last for however long the high lasted.
Long term: addiction. I don’t believe in psychological dependence because I’ve never experienced it, and I find it absurd that people call addiction a “disease”. Addiction is when a person takes a drug, likes the effects, takes it again. Voila, a disease; with the same logic, I could say a person who watched TV too much was a TV addict, or someone who ate sweets a lot was a sugar addict. Is that a disease? Addiction does not come from a drug, addiction comes from a person who chooses to keep doing it; “I can’t stop” is a meaningless phrase to me. Also, I’ve never heard the phrase “marijuana addict” used, ever.
Paranoia; well, obviously; you’re doing something illegal, and the consequences if you get caught aren’t very appealing.
Anxiety; again with the addiction, a pot user looks forward to the next time he gets high, a fan of TV looks forward to the next airing of his favorite program, a child wants his candy.
Impaired learning skills, memory difficulties. Now, this might have some truth in it, but I haven’t found any because I never had any problems in school while I was doing it. I’m guessing that impaired learning skills and memory difficulties happen either when 1) you’re high all the time, including during school or 2) pot’s always on your mind, its a distraction.
Medical complications were results of long term use, and I wasn’t planning to use it often, so I disregarded it.
I smoked maybe 5 times from October 2002 to January 2003.
You live in Australia; I have no idea what its like there, so…if your place is as good as you say, be thankful for it.
We aren’t doing anything about the lazy, uncaring parents if we’re simply going to tell them to spank their kids when they misbehave. They’re still lazy and uncaring. I’m not going to say spanking can never change behavior- of course it can, at least sometimes. But it won’t change the behavior of some kids at all. And it has disadvantages not shared by other methods-
-If children only behave because they are afraid of being punished, there is no reason to behave when they won’t get caught.
-If I have managed to raise children who don’t care about what I think, and who don’t see any reason to do the right thing unless they fear physical punishment, what will I do when they can overpower me? They have no respect for me and no longer need to fear me.
You’re assuming that you find out you’re wrong before the duration of the punishment is over. For example, if you ground your son and make him stay home, and his favorite band’s in town and all his friends are going to see their concert, and he can’t go because he’s grounded, so he doesn’t, then you find out your daughter did it…then what? You can’t take that punishment back.
Then thats abuse. I’m advocating punishment, not beating the crap out of your kid because you’re out of control. Besides, what kind of person grounds their daughter for a year when they’re very angry? If your kid is refusing to accept her punishment for breaking a rule, and you’re fed up after a day’s work, you don’t extend a grounding, you go into a rage and slap her or something. That’s abuse.
Same logic works for any other punishment.
Good point. What will you do when they can overpower you? What are you going to do when you ground your son and make him stay in his room, but he refuses, shoves you out of the way, runs out of the house and goes off doing who-knows-what?
FudgeNugget writes: “What will you do when they can overpower you? What are you going to do when you ground your son and make him stay in his , but he refuses, shoves you out of the way, runs out of the house and goes off doing who-knows-what?”
Aren’t we being a little presumptiuous here? You don’t exactly know Doreen’s son, nor is any of us able to predict the future.
No, I don’t know Doreen’s son, nor am I able to predict the future. My situation was hypothetical, as were Doreen’s with grounding, abuse, and overpowering.
The thing that bothers me, and which doesn’t at all help your argument, is that you take a very negative view, almost assuming that every kid is out to stab his mother! You’re talking police reports and aggravated assaults, chairs being thrown at people, mayhem and more. I really question the accuracy of your worldview.
Good point. What will you do when they can overpower you? What are you going to do when you ground your son and make him stay in his room, but he refuses, shoves you out of the way, runs out of the house and goes off doing who-knows-what?
[/quote]
What I’m doing about the above is raising children not to believe that “might makes right”, and to do the right thing simply because it isthe right thing, not because they are afraid of punishment. Which is generally the way we want to raise children
Yor’re kind of making my point for me here. It’s a lot easier to cross over into abuse if physical punishment is an option you’ve allowed yourself. And actually, you haven’t been advocating either discipline or punishment, simply “spanking”, as if there were no other methods.
That’s right-but since spanking is generally an immediate response,there’s almost no chance of fnding out before the punishment is over
You obviously haven’t read the thread at all. Throughout, I’ve referred to “some kids” and “those kids” and etc.; they refer to the kids whom I advocate corporal punishment be imposed. Obviously not every kid is out to stab his mother, throughout the thread there were posters who were raised just fine without physical punishment, but there are SOME who were not, and are not being raised fine without physical punishment. Or maybe its parents who don’t do anything at all thats the problem; either way, things can’t go without consequences, and I find physical punishment more effective than other methods (at my age, with my understanding of what I think is right and wrong, in my opinion). Works for some people, doesn’t work for others.
When did I talk about police reports, aggravated assault, chairs being thrown, mayhem and more? Anything that would require a police report should be handled by just that; the police. As Lissa said, if your kid gets that much out of control, call the cops.
The accuracy of my worldview? Do you think I’m suggesting every kid across the world is a psychotic diseaster zone? I live in a suburban neighborhood in New Jersey, as stated before. Kayeby lives in Australia, he says there are no problems, and his friends are great people; I believe him. I generally take a negative view of some kids because I’ve derived my opinion from what I’ve seen, and it isn’t very good.