“Go get me belt and bend over” or “Come here Joey, we need to talk”
My eyes are about to fall out of my head from reading about disciplining children. If you look at most of recorded history, discipline was swift, somewhat harsh, and in the extreme, lethal. You look at books written in the last 25-30 years and most profess talking, bargaining, setting up contracts. The good old “Spare the rod and spoil the child” is out of vogue. Which actually should be: “He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.” It seems that as a firmer approach to disciple waned, children and society in general has degenerated into the mess you see today. Children killing children, a lack of respect for other people in general. I believe discipline to be one of the major reasons that as a race we have achieved so much
Yeah, you’re right. It was so much better when parents could whip their children. I mean, we didn’t have any of the problems we have now. No crime, no war, no famine, no poverty, no violence. So what if a few of the kids were scarred, maimed, or killed. That’ll learn 'em, right?
I am not advocating whips or maiming. I did not say that there were no problems, wars etc…The question really is one general discipline such as spanking, not whipping with an electrical cord. I am reading everything I can get my hands on as to try to do the best to raise my children. I have an 8 almost 9 year old daughter who is into lying, ignoring our house rules and being disrespectful of Mom & Dad. I see very little discipline like I remember growing up. I see more and more problems with children these days. My wife and I are trying to decide if stronger discipline would work. I am looking for information accusations.
<Eastern KY accent> “My Daddy whooped me ever’ day when I was a youngun, and it never did me no harm!” </Eastern KY accent>
Throughout my college years, I have tried to make a mental catalog of how the people I grew up with “turned out”, compared with their upbringing. I’m hoping this will be useful info if and when I have kids.
I know a lot of people who were spanked and turned out to be hellions, and plenty who were not that turned out to be great people. I also know plenty who were spanked who turned out OK (myself included), and plenty who were not who became hellions. Can’t say that it makes much difference, in my experience.
Discipline is important, but there are other ways of going about it. Actually, in my experience, it was the kids whose parents pushed the discipline too hard who had problems later on. I knew a lot of people who were never allowed to do anything unless their parents knew and approved every detail way in advance, and who were never allowed to make any decisions for themselves. When they got on their own, they went one of two ways–they either proceeded to make all the wrong decisions, or never made any at all. You have to find a way to balance discipline and trust.
I would love to reply to this thread, but the OP is kindof jumbled. Is there a corporal punishment debate in there somewhere? It appears that’s what Sn-man is aiming for, but then what’s that talk about lethal punishment? In stating “I believe discipline to be one of the major reasons that as a race we have achieved so much,” are you talking specifically about spanking, other types of “get tough” discipline, or just an overall attitude?
If this is a “spanking” debate, I’ll throw this out: There is a difference between spanking, and a whipping or beating. If the call here is for more scarring, maiming, and killing (the approach David B has assumed); well, good luck trying to find any takers.
I am sorry if the OP is jumbled. I really am looking for peoples thoughts on the effectiveness of as DIVEMASTER put it: “Get Tough” Discipline. I remember spankings and they were effective. My wife and I do not agree on the use of spankings and so do not use them (twice in 8 years). I am interested in finding out what people think about the practice and it’s influence on society. Specifically, if the decline in the practice of spankings and firmer discipline relates to an increase in social and societal problems.
Ok, other posters got in there ahead of me, so that clears up a little of my confusion.
Yes, it is a difficult balance. On one hand, you have the parents who rule with an iron fist; on the other hand, you have the parents who are so afraid to stand up to their kids that they basically forgo any effective discipline.
If the latter is the case, by the time a child is 9 or so, it will be extremely difficult to break the bad habits that were sown. Children know when a parent is afraid to come down hard. It will be difficult for this child to take a newfound approach to discipline seriously. Consistency is better than waiting 9 years to find a spine. (I’m not saying this is the case with the OP; just making a general point).
I know parents who wish to be “buddies” with their children rather than present a clear authority figure. These parents are well-meaning, but are doing their kids a great disservice. They feel that anything more than a weak or gentle attempt at correction will cause the child not to like them any more.
I’m sure you’ve seen kids like this. Restaurant behavior is a good clue. “Please sit down.” “Please sit down.” “Please sit down.” “You make Mommy sad when you run around” (like the kid cares). “Let’s discuss why sitting down would make Mommy happy.” “Other diners don’t like it when you lick their forks.” “No TV tonight if you don’t sit down.” (kid knows Mommy never follows through). Mommy to friend: “I just don’t know why I can’t control my child.”
Parent at next table with her own kid: “If you don’t sit down, you will be punished when we get home.” If the kid knows this is true, he is more likely (though by no means guaranteed!) to be a better-behaved child.
Sn-man, I am a believer in spanking in theory. However, it is my opinion that 90% of parents don’t use it effectively or in a manner of loving discipline. I also do not think starting corporal punishment on a child of 9 would be effective. She would likely be confused (“Why is Daddy hitting me?”). It’s one thing to rear a child with spanking, rather another to spring it on her as some type of surprise new approach.
I would guess most posters on this board are probably against spanking in any and all cases. But since even I wouldn’t recommend it in your case, I don’t feel compelled to spell out or defend my position at the moment. (Must…resist…urge…) Maybe later if things head in that direction.
That’s all well and good, I guess; but it doesn’t help your situation at all. Generally, I suggest that you and your wife set down ground rules for what behavior is accepted and what is not. Let the little one know that certain actions will receive certain consequences. Then follow through. Inconsistency is many parents’ biggest downfall.
Part of the problem with the ‘Bring back spanking’ issue is a perception of ‘good old days’ that doesn’t reflect the actual state of society at the time.Bad kids did bad things, you just didn’t have Sally or Maury around to broadcast it nationwide.
I agree with the sentiment that many (not all) parents these days are taking the soft or easy road when it comes to discipline.I won’t get into the specific argument of spanking, but I believe some sort of discipline is vital for a child to grow into a decent member of society. And many children are being deprived of this. This laziness or laxness on the part of some parents is what I feel to be the problem, not that they are specifically not spanking. Many methods to teach and enforce discipline exist, so spanking doesn’t nessecarily have to be the method one chooses.If you don’t agree with it, fine.Don’t spank.But you must do something. And it is there that I think the problems come in.
It seems as if, when the old standard of spanking is no longer desirable or acceptable, some folks will just surrender entirely.Rather than put the effort in to find another viable form of discipline, some people throw their hands up in despair and cry, “But I can’t spank him! There’s nothing I can do about his behaviour.” Which I personally think is a cop out.
I think its important to look at other standards for behaviour when trying to figure out the difference between kids then and now. I’m not exactly sure how to word this, but for instance:
Respect for others is an something you brought up in the OP.It seems to you (correct me if I’m wrong) that in days gone by, children had more respect for others.Alright, lets look at how they got to be that way.
What did those parents teach those children that is different from what children today are learning? What did those children see their parents doing? Did they learn early on to be respectful? In what ways is it different from what parents do now?
See, I think its not so much 'How did they punish them for not doing the right thing?", but more about 'How did they teach them to do right in the first place?" .
I am totally with divemaster on this.Kids will do just as much as you will let them.And they learn early what they can get away with, so suddenly deciding that an behaviour is unacceptable will really throw them.If you’ve spent a lot of time bargaining with your kids, they are sure to have decided who’s in control by now and breaking them of that will be hard. You will have to be consistent, it will not be fun, but it can be done. But the hard work will fall to you and you’ve got to be willing to do it, else don’t bother.It’s definitely too late to bring spanking in to the equation.I imagine all it would do is make your daughter resent you and your authority, making the situation that much worse.Definitely lay down house rules and stick by them.By clearly stating what is and what is not acceptable (and the consequences) you will make things easier on yourself and your child.
I can relate to how I think you are feeling. My oldest had a rough patch and it worried me that he would turn out like one of the Maury Povich horror-children. Looking back, I think that it was just the age. But by seeing all the horrible things kids were up to on TV, etc. it seemed , at the time, like I had a future criminal on my hands.I know how it is to be desperate to help your kid. Something good to do for yourself would be to talk to others whose children are older than yours. Find out if their kids did similar things. You may just find that your daughter is going through a typical 9yr old girl, pre-puberty phase. You may find out that what she’s doing is normal.Not acceptable, but not so unusual. Sometimes parents need a little reassurance, too.
That said, he believed in spanking. However, he did this only in the most dire circumstances. In fact, I can only recall one spanking and one other physical punishment when I was older.
Frankly, I deserved it a few more times as well, but the lessene3d frequency of this type of punishment made me realize exactly WHEN I had really gone over limits.
I think that never spanking your kids can lead to trouble, but so can spanking them too much.
But if you save it up for special cases, it can do wonders. It did for me and my family…
Yer pal,
Satan
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We always had the threat of spanking, but the one time we were actually told to “bend down and touch your ankles”, my dad chickened out. He just couldn’t spank us. And we deserved it. If any child ever deserved a spanking, we did that day. But my parents didn’t need to spank us, they just took things away. Not priviliages, we never heard “you’re grounded!” But they took away our favorite toys, books, movies, whatever. I think they took the right approach. I mean, when you screw up at work big time, you lose your job, or at least get “Written up”, and it’s brought home that you MIGHT lose your job. Now, if it came down to it, would you rather your employer box your ears or take your job?
Personally, I would rather get smacked. If you cheat on your SO, do you get a spanking and then all is forgiven? No, chances are, you lose your significant other.
I think spankings work because they instill fear. So it’s out of fear children behave, not respect. I would rather the child learn respect, not fear. But that’s just my HO.
Okay, I guess I have to throw in my beliefs…
When I was growing up I did not get spanked. I didn’t even get grounded. What I did get was hours upon hours of lectures…and if listening to your mom drone on and on hour after hour isn’t enough to set you straight, nothing else will.
But I think what she did was right. First, she tried to avert disaster. She told me ahead of time what sort of things I shouldn’t do (along the lines of “watch this paper burn…thats what can happen if you play with matches, now don’t”) When I was in trouble, she explained to me why it was wrong and what would happen if I continues to act that way. If I did not behave in a restaraunt, she explained that I was making it hard for other people and if I continued she would not be able to take me to restraunts any more.
Finally, and most importantly, she let me get in a little trouble. In situations where there was an obvious bad consequence, she would let me expeiriance it. In Ninth grade I went on a staying up until three every night phase, but soon I learned that if I stayed up all night I would not be able to function well at school or enjoy my life much. That phase was shortlived. It is better to learn that sort of thing where the consequences are still small.
Dearest mother always made rules that made sense. She would allow me to have a piece of candy if I asked, but was not afraid to say no if I had too much. My cousin’s dad’s rule was “No candy-ever, unless we give it to you which is a rare event”. As a result, my cousin stole candy as often as she could and genrally snuck around her father’s back. I, however, learned to eat candy in moderation and never needed to push that limit.
Likewise, I never had a curfew. When I wanted to go out, my mom wanted to know where I was going and what time whatever I was doing was over. Generally “hanging out” late at night with no plan was not generally acceptable. Going to a concert or a movie, however, was, and I was expected to come home after the event was over. This made a lot more sense than my friends that had to be home at 11:00 (Just before the end of the concert!) because of some arbitrary requirement their parents made to assert their authority. As such, I generally went out to my events and came home when they were done, while my friends were staying out to their cerfew every night, doing lord knows what, just to push the limits.
I guess I was allowed to make a lot of decisions. It was not a matter of “I have to do this because mom said so”, but of “this is the right thing to do”. I think this has better equipt me for life after parents. While my friends in college, new to real freedom, are fumbleing around, I have already learned real decision making. I have learned to live in moderation and how to set limits on myself (not just how to live up to and test limits imposed upon me)
My mother used spanking sparingly and I believe quite effectively. An important part of her strategy was to only use it as an immediate measure to stop us from continuing our bad behaviour; on those rare occasions it came as such a shock that we were stunned out of acting badly. We never had the prospect of a good ol’ spanking hanging over us from some past misdemeanour. In retrospect I cannot even say it was a violent act, though perhaps just a bit humiliating. It did not really hurt. Had she used it less sparingly we would have soon realised and it would have lost its effectiveness. I am fairly confident that we were in no way damaged by her spanking and were on the whole well behaved children.
I am not claiming that it was the only way to use spanking effectively nor necessarily better than non-physical discipline - my nephews are very well behaved kids and have never received any physical punishment. I do feel however that spanking can be used as an effective and humane punishment.
That said, I am actually against giving parents carte blanche to exact physical punishment. Too many parents would, either through ignorance or malice, go too far to the detriment of the children. It would be difficult to create laws which uphold the right to ‘reasonable’ punishment yet still outlaw the excesses. It is not always the type of punishment which is damaging but when and how it is applied. I would rather see all spanking outlawed to save those for whom it is a form of abuse.
Hey ticker, do you really want to create a criminal class out of a great number of parents? If your suggestion of outlawing spanking were to be implemented, how many of your friends and collegues would end up arrested? Do you think having their parents arrested is better for the kids than a spanking?
What penalty would you suggest? Prison? A fine? Being sent to re-education camps?
I frame my question in this way, because it seems like a response so typical of the times: ask the Federal government to step in and regulate, without really analyzing the consequences.
Of course, physical abuse is already against the law. And although spanking in itself does not constitute abuse, it can metastisize into abuse behavior. I agree with your concern over making sure this line is not crossed; I just think criminalizing action ‘A’ in order not to encourage action ‘B’ is a misguided approach.
Two advantages of spanking over other forms of discipline:
It is immediate. At younger ages particularly, this is important, as you are attempting to associate the crime with the punishment. Another form of discipline such as grounding or removal of this or that priviledge is problematic in that by the time the punishment is administered the situation which provoked it is often long gone.
It is also over immediately. This is also important. As soon as it is administered, a reconciliation can begin.
It goes without saying that a child raised with fear will not be effectively raised. A child must be raised with love. But a little bit of fear is a healthy compliment.
Divemaster you are probably correct, an over reaction on my part. I do see a problem still in that some parents seem unable, whether through ignorance or having themselves suffered as children, to distinguish between appropriate and abusive punishment. Laws which meerly state that excessive punishment constitutes abuse will offer no real guidence to those people to judge what society finds acceptable. As I see it laws which explicitly outlaw specific forms of punsihment will inevitably affect degrees of usage which most would find acceptable. You can either legislate too much or too little. Can you see a way out of this?
First, let me point out the etymology of “discipline.” Middle English, from Old French & Latin; Old French, from Latin “disciplina” teaching, learning, from “discipulus” pupil.
That said, I agree that parents need to discipline their children more - in the teaching sense.
IMHO, parents who spank their kids are equally ineffectual as the ones who try to be their friends. What are you teaching the kid when you spank him? That you have no control over the situation except by virtue of your greater size. That conflict and anger can be resolved by resort to physical abuse. That the biggest person wins - might makes right.
I completely agree with the poster who pointed out that consequences for adults are rarely corporal punishment. Even jail time is more like grounding than spanking. Why not teach your kids the skills they’ll need to get by as adults - by showing them that freedom/fun/respect are curtailed by misbehavior, rather than teaching them to solve problems by brute force?
I don’t really like the idea of spanking, because of what Aeryn Sun said. It teaches that violence is the correct way to solve things.
I RARELY, if ever was spanked. I don’t even remember being spanked. I remember being slapped across the face once at the dinner table for calling my dad a fucking asshole.
That said, my parents were pretty strict. Discipline was, “Please sit down…NOW.” And it was said in a stern voice, leaving no room for argument. (I don’t mean the Please honey, sit down, come on, type.) More like, “Now, we are at a restaurant. The proper thing to do is to sit. If you do not behave, we will leave.” My parents said please, but it was still a command, not a request.
My parents grounded me. And when they said, “If you don’t behave, no tv,” and they MEANT it. I knew they meant it.
The best way of discipline is being consistent, and NOT giving into tantrems. I remember throwing a three hour screaming fit when I was 8 just for a doll. I didn’t get it. My mom sat in the other room, ignoring me the entire time.
When I finally tired myself out…my dad sat me on his lap and calmly but FIRMLY explained that such a display was totally uncalled for (we at my gramma’s, too!), and that I was not going to get the doll and I was ESPECIALLY not going to get what I wanted by screaming and throwing a fit about it. My dad really didn’t HAVE to raise his voice. He would speak very slowly, and very calmly. But if you met my dad, you would know right away that he’s one of those people who doesn’t take shit from anyone, though he is very easygoing. It’s strange. My mom yelled at me more, but I was more inclined to pay attention to my dad, cuz I knew he meant business.
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