While opinion is all over the map, the question to me is fairly simple: in the absence of any clear evidence that it is an effective disciplinary tactic, why would I want to hit my kids?
If it were obvious that spanking worked, I might feel differently. As several people have said, however, there seems to be little correlation between whether a child is spanked and their subsequent behavior. As DoctorJ put it:
Since it doesn’t seem to make a difference, I’d prefer to invest my energy in other strategies that might work better. Just as some parents think that if they can’t spank their kids there’s nothing else they can do but whine and plead with the kids to behave, there seem to be other parents who think that hitting their kids is all they can do (or who’re unwilling to work any harder than that), who’re content to spank and then shrug their shoulders when it doesn’t have the desired result.
Coming up with appropriate consequences for a particular unacceptable action is tough to do – I frequently find myself at a loss to know how to deal with something my son has done that doesn’t admit of some obvious response. Remaining firm in the face of crying and protesting isn’t easy either. But just as I refuse to give in to the desire to have my children “like” me when it means failing to follow through in disciplining them, I also refuse to give in to the easy answer of hitting them.
As hard as it is to remember at times, the right strategy is to discipline; to train and teach appropriate behavior. Punishment is something else, something that may be an appropriate tactic in the service of discipline, or that may be a counterproductive emotional reaction on the part of the parent that takes the place of real discipline. To me, punishment consists of a punitive act (or refusal to act) that is not a direct and logical consequence of the child’s action. Refusing to take the child on a promised trip to the park is merely discipline if it results from the child’s refusal to get dressed, punishment if it results from the child throwing food or hitting a sibling. These are nevertheless examples of punishment in the service of discipline, not in lieu of it. Hitting the child in reaction to any of these would be, in my opinion, punishment instead of discipline.
Sorry, but when my five-year-old deliberately pulled down his pants and urinated in the corner of my bedroom, I spanked him. Far more sound than fury, as any parent who knows the difference between “spanking” and “beating” knows.
He didn’t NOT know he wasn’t supposed to. As a matter of fact, when I caught him his little sister was in the room. I heard this as I rounded the corner:
“Carl, why you peeing?”
“Shhhh, don’t tell mommy.”
He has not done it since. After I spanked him, I sat down with him and we discussed it. He doesn’t pee anywhere but the toilet any more, either.
Obviously spaking is not always the solution. Sometimes I have to step back and cut through the red-grey fog of rage that surrounds me when I catch him doing something blatantly wrong…like pumping out the entire contents of a bottle of shampoo into the tub. That time, I didn’t spank him; he didn’t know WHY not to pump all of the shampoo down the drain. I explained about wasting, and that now when his brothers wanted to wash their hair they wouldn’t be able to, because he had wasted it…and we talked about wasting things and why we don’t do that. No sweat. Now he’s got that concept too. It’s all a matter of circumstance and degree.
I do think that people who punch, throw, whip, or otherwise actually damage their kids have a special circle of Hell waiting for them.
Pain is the most highly evolved teaching method in existence, and it exists for a reason: to negatively reinforce behavior that is undesirable/dangerous.
Spanking, when used properly (not excessively, not abusively) is simply taking advantage of this. Pain (example: a slap on the hand or a swat on the butt) when the child does something dangerous or against the rules is the most effective way to deliver a message across. After all, which method will best stay with the child: Hearing his mother tell him two dozen times not to touch the hot stove, or one time touching it?
It is not teaching a child that “might makes right” or that violence is a perfectly good response to a stimulus (although there are times when that’s true. But that is for another day and another thread). What it is is establishing cause and effect.
Cause: I ignore my parents when they tell me (not) to do something.
Effect: I get put in timeout, told no TV, put to bed, sat in the corner, etc.
Cause II: I ignore timeout, watch TV anyway, get out of bed, leave the corner without permission, etc
Effect II: I feel nature’s teacher (pain from a spanking).
Spanking gives weight to timeouts and removal of privileges. What is important and most people do not realize is that whether you’re talking about spanking, taking away privileges, timeouts, etc…none of them is a disciplinary method all by itself. They have to be used in concert together and properly.
Another very important point: Spanking needs to be done calmly, NOT in anger. It needs to be given in a corrective manner, not as revenge for making the parent mad, and should be discussed with the child to make sure they know why they’re being spanked.
And I personally favor flogging as a punishment for adults as well.
I’ve looked into the spanking issue for a few years now, and in the studies I’ve seen (as a general rule), children who are spanked (NOT abused, just spanked–I checked the methodology for the studies, and they clearly demarcated between a few smacks and a beating), often show higher levels of aggression and lower IQs and scholastic advancement. IIRC, It tends to correlate pretty well with degree of spanking; severely spanked children do worst, slightly spanked (once a month or so) do better, and children who aren’t spanked at all do best. I dug up a ton of cites for the last thread on spanking, but it is unfortunately lost to the archives. There are some studies that support spanking, or at least say it does no harm–I recall one minor study that found if a male child had a close bond with his father, spanking (as long as it was not overly harsh) might be effective in controlling aggressive and antisocial behavior–but the weight of the evidence seems to be in favor of no spanking. It is possible that more aggressive children are spanked more often, rather than spanking makes children more aggressive, but I do not think it is a good idea to teach children that it is acceptable to hit people smaller and weaker than you if they don’t do what you want them to. You can discipline children without spanking; and if you must spank, make sure you use it appropriately, and not just because you lost your temper.
Believe it or not, I had a terrible temper (still do, actually, just well-controlled) as a small child, and my brother was even worse. My mother never used violence to discipline us, though; she had three major rules: no hitting, no lying and no name-calling. How could she tell us not to hit and then hit us herself? She taught me how to control my temper, how to discipline myself instead of hurting me physically to get me to do what she wanted. And my brother and I never got in any serious trouble, we have good jobs, and we can be aware of our anger and still control it–I haven’t hit anyone since my brother and I would have pillow fights, and I’m pretty sure my brother can say the same.
Fo the most part I use time out (go stand in the corner and think about what you just did). However I also use spanking when the situation warrants. Thankfully it’s very rare. (i have three boys bet ages 5-9 and there’s only been one incident this year which warranted it). In both cases following the discipline we discuss the offending behavior and why it was wrong and what’s expected of them.
In short I think both ways are effective with consistency and discussion. But effective communication seems to be the most effective form of contriolling behavior. My kids and I discuss behavior we observe(like a kid throwing a tantrum in the gorcery store), so my kids know how I feel about a given set of actions.
It would seem to me that all these studies suffer from a cause and effect problem. Parents who are themselves more prone to violence are more likely to be hitting their children. If those children are themselves violent, it’s hard to tell if this is the result of being hit by their parents, or that they have merely inherited their parent’s tendency towards violence.
Also, it is quite likely that in lower socio-economic strata spanking is more common, as such people have been less influenced by “enlightened” psychological thought. (This is also widely thought to be true, anecdotally). Children of these classes are more likely to have the problems you describe, with the reasons not limited to the spankings that they have received.
“I dont spank my children. I find that waving the gun around does the job just as well”
Denis Leary.
Discipline dosent have to involve spanking at all. If you can explain to your child that what they are doing is wrong, and thet you are upset by their actions, they should think twice about doing something like that again. It is a lot more favourable than a child who is too AFRAID to do something.
Possible, Izzy. I did note that it is possible that more aggressive children are simply spanked more often, but from the studies I’ve seen, children’s behavior tends to worsen over time when spanked, rather than improve.
The studies that I looked at did separate out socio-economic strata, and still spanking was correlated with aggressive and anti-social behavior even in better-off families.
My parents were reasonable spankers. The did spank me and my brother but used other methods as well and did not beat us. We were
However, when we went to my Aunt’s she not only spanked, but beat us with a belt, sometimes using the buckle end as well. I was terrified of her as were her children. They would lie and hide things from her and blame things on others to avoid trouble. When i tried to complain to my mother about my aunt she did nothing, afterall my aunt was just spanking me for misbehaving. I was unable to get it through to her that what my Aunt did was so much worse that any spanking that i ever got at home. I even got in more trouble for trying to undermine adult authority and gave up.
Also:
My younger brother did abuse me and was allowed to get away with it because for some bizarre reason my mother felt that fighting between siblings wasn’t all that bad and should be sorted out between them without interference. My brother seemed to think he could teach me to obey him if he hit me hard enough often enough.
I have not spoken to my brother since he broke my nose. I find my Aunt’s oldest two children are too annoying to be around as adults. I avoid them. The youngest, who was coddled by her standards, seems ok.
“I RARELY, if ever was spanked. I don’t even remember being spanked. I remember being slapped across the face once at the dinner table for calling my dad a fucking asshole.”
Huh?
Granted I don’t think that the first thing that you should turn to is spanking, but I am not going to say that it does not have its place along with some real systems of discipline. Some of the children I see around me, friends children, relations etc are so severely lacking in ANY kind of discipline that it makes me really question what society is going to end up like. These are the kids who would call their dad a “fucking asshole”. I just think that people are so intent on not disciplining their children and occasionally spanking them that children have no idea what it is to have a boundaries. Discipline is NOT just about spanking, but it is sometimes a part of it. And there is a big BIG difference between spanking and abuse.
My mother spanked me (Dad never touched me, it was not about force) if I did something that was wrong or down right disrespectful. I can tell you that “I” learnt my lesson. Shit, I STILL couldn’t and wouldn’t say something like that to my parents.
Consequently I have nothing but respect for the way that they bought me up. I had boundaries, I knew when I crossed then. They did not abuse me, but when I needed it I was punished. And hey, I don’t think I turned out so bad. I didn’t throw tantrums and demand things in supermarkets because I KNEW it was not acceptable. I am not a violent person. Neither of my brothers is a violent person. In fact I think we are all pretty ok.
I realise that I am going a little off subject, but I really think that generally a lot of children now lack discipline and self control and just simple respect and if a spanking now and then is going to teach them a little bit about that, then I have absolutely no problems with it.
It isn’t just about WHETHER to spank: it’s about when and why.
For example, in my family, if you broke or spilled something while horsing around doing something that you knew better not to do, you might have got spanked.
If you broke or spilled something by accident, you were told to clean it up and be more careful next time. (I have a great-aunt, a neat freak, who I’ve seen crack her kids across the face if they accidently dropped a bit of food on the floor at dinner <shudder>)
In our house, if you DID do something to deserve a whack, it was always on the bottom, never in the face or anywhere else. And mom or dad might even get mad enough to yell at you, but NEVER called you names and always stuck specifically to what you did, never making generalizations: “I can’t believe you did that, you know better!” not “You’re stupid, you’ve never been able to do anything right!” When we were old enough to articulate properly, we were also allowed explanations (if they were legitimate), instead of my parents just going ballistic first and asking questions second.
As for misbehaving in public, I never remember doing that, because it must have been nipped in the bud REAL early. And whining not only DIDN’T get us what we wanted, it got something taken away.
Sorry this is getting long, but it’s turning out to be a paeon to my parents, who are the coolest…They walked that fine line so well. They were in charge, yet so reasonable; if you acted like a child you got treated like a child. If you acted like an adult surprise! you got treated like an adult. They had good but not extreme expectations for us and we lived up to them. When we moved out one by one they considered it a job well done, and today treat us all as adults and as equals. Bless 'em!
Obviously, then, your father wasn’t a fucking asshole.
I have a great deal of respect for my father and my elders (no matter how much they hate it, it’s far too ingrained in me to refer to them by proper surnames, for example)- but that doesn’t change the fact that my father could be a fucking asshole, and that once or twice in my life I was brave enough to call him on it (though usually weeks after the fact, after having built courage up).
As for the OP- I don’t think spanking beyond a certain age is an effective tool. At a very young age children have a tough time associating cause and effect, and so a quick swat on the bottom (as mentioned before, a combination of ‘Stop that right now!’ and ‘Don’t do that!’) can be an effective tool in disciplining. Once a child gets older, though, I don’t think it’s nearly as effective as other types of punishments.
That having been said, I think it’s important to remember that spanking is a tool of discipline, and that overuse and exaggeration of any of the tools is abuse; spanking just grabs people’s attention because it leaves obvious marks, whereas the other types of abuse- emotional and mental- can be just as damaging.
I was never spanked but one time when I was twelve or so, I hit my mother. I didn’t hurt her, was in fac throwing a tantrum, but my mother was very upset.
My father who was a marine came home that night to find me in my room awaiting doom. He said to me very calmly “I have never hit you, or threatened to hit you, but if you ever a raise a hand against your mother again, I am going to break it off. (he made a snapping motion over his knee) Now goodnight.”
I can’t argue that many kids lack discipline and self-control. And if it were the case that spanking could ameliorate that, I’d support it too. The evidence, however, is that it does not teach children discipline and self-control. It teaches them nothing at best and to solve problems with violence at worst. Either they become indifferent to the pain (in which case it’s pointless) or they become resentful and defiant (in which case it’s worse than pointless, it’s destructive of the ends you’re trying to achieve).
Establish for me a coherent body of evidence based on solid experimental data that shows beneficial effects from spanking, and I’ll stop opposing it. Mine is less a philosophical opposition than a practical one. I’d rather see parents look for and adopt disciplinary strategies that do in fact work than have them spanking their kids, believing that they’ve thereby done their job as parents, relying on the wisdom of the ages as their authority. Two hundred years ago, “everyone knew” that bleeding patients suffering from a “plethory” was sound medical practice, restoring the balance of the humours in the body. While many of our traditional beliefs and accepted practices are quite sound, many do not hold up to close inquiry. I maintain that spanking is one of these, and that it’s injurious not only in the most obvious sense, but also in that is too often allowed to substitute for more effective measures.
Just wanted to chime in and drop an interesting tidbit from my college Sociology book. According to some studies people discipline their children in different ways based upon their work experience not necessarily their socio-economic status. People with blue collar jobs are more apt to use strict rules and physical punishment then people with white collar jobs. Example:
Little Johnny is jumping on the bed which is against the rules…
Blue collar worker is more likely to punish based on rules and enforce conformity regardless of the circumstances.
White collar worker more likely to determine the cause (“Why are you jumping on the bed?”) and determine whether or not this exception would be ok.
Generally speaking if, in the parents workplace, conformity is rewarded parents often punish in ways to promote conformity. Conversely if, in the parents workplace, independence and autonomy is rewarded the parents will be more likely to discipline their children differently. Essentially parents were found to discipline their children in ways which help their child succeed if they were in the parents position.
My dad was neither a fucking asshole, nor was a little brat.
That was when I was 14 and going through my bitchy puberty phase.
My dad was tough but fair, trust me. I was scared of him, but NOT because I would get hit. My dad just LOOKS scary when he’s pissed!
That was the one and ONLY time I ever did THAT…
Like all kids are perfect?
(Well, I do call my mom a bitch, but she calls me one too, it’s an inside joke between the two of us now that I’m older…)
Trust me, my parents never NEEDED to spank me. When they told me something, I listened!
BTW, did anyone else’s dad have the “Dad Look?” You know, the folded brow, the tight mouth, and the puckered forehead stern-you listen NOW!-look?
All my dad had to do was give me that look…and I obeyed!
But then, I was a quiet child. I was most contented to sit in my room and play with my dolls. My sister was the one who wrote on walls and poured flour on the cat!
(My sister DID get spanked a few times…my parents had to get one of those kid leeshes for her…because she always ran away in the stores!)
Besides, realidad, are you saying you NEVER tried to purposely push boundaries, or piss off your parents on purpose?
That’s what I was trying to do…trust me, my parents had boundaries…but I was 14 and a snotty punk kid. I wanted to antagonize them! I’m sure a lot of us here tried to push our parents to the limits at one point or another.
Yeah, I pulled some stunts, but my parents didn’t let me get away with it. I was in with the wrong crowd. The one night I tried to call 911 just to scare my parents. A cop came to our house and yelled at me. THEN…my parents yelled at me and grounded me for three months.
My folks were and still are pretty strict. Hell, I’m 22 and my mother STILL gets pissed off at me for swearing.
So don’t just assume that I’m a disrespectful, undisciplined hooligan. That is so far from the truth it’s laughable.
And one last thing-when I misbehaved in public, my folks didn’t say a word-they just picked me up and carried me out to the car…then we went home and I was sent to my room to scream my lungs out…without an audience, I soon quit.