“Go get me belt and bend over” or “Come here Joey, we need to talk”

Great Debates
41

I am a single parent. I rarely spank my children. My daughter is now to old to spank anyway. I must admit that my son is much more likely to receive a spanking than my daughter did. Not because he is a boy specifically but because I almost NEVER spanked her at all. I am simply trying a new approach. Both of my children are/were very active, impulsive, and tempermental. They both have reading disabilities, otherwise their IQs are normal. I can’t say a lot about them having a temper, I always did and had to learn to control it over the years. At 15 my daughter began to give me serious problems. It was tearing our little family apart. She also had grown to the point that she was a full 3 inches taller than me. She thought that I could not control her at all. She actually thought she could “whip my ass”. One night she became so mad at me that she took a swing at me. So I did a little WWF on her in the middle of kitchen floor. She bumped her head on the oven door on the way down. I simply tackled her and laid on her until she calmed down. After that the stage was set for more challenges. Our problems went on for a year.

Anyway, this is what I began to think. What will I do when HE is 14? He won’t just be 5’9" or 10" and another woman to deal with, he’ll be the size of man. Perhaps he’ll be even larger, what will I do then? I’ve known of single women raising boys who became scared of their sons. And I won’t be as young and strong as I am now either. Not that I expect him to go through a terribly defiant stage, but you never know.

My way of thinking about spanking is this…sometimes there may come a day when it is not possible to control a child by respect alone. I realize that children should be taught to settle their differences in an intelligent non-violent way…But let’s get off it here! The world is violent! Your home may be the most peaceful, loving spot in the universe but when you send your children out into the cold world, or the middle school bus, they may encounter violence. They don’t need to learn violence or anything else for that matter at home, all they have to do is turn on the television or ride the school bus.

So as for my son…I suppose he has received a couple of more spankings that she did not. Usually for “showing his temper” or being disrespectful when I am trying to discipline him for something else, being defiant. Truth is it’s been awhile since I did spank him. I just know that I can’t allow him to see me as wishy-washy or easily pushed around. One day he and I will be alone in that house together and he will be a teenager, bigger than me. I really don’t think I have anything to fear from my son, but I don’t think it hurts my situation one bit for my kids to think that mama is just “too bad” to be messing with. You can dislike my position on this if you choose but I can’t afford to let our situation ever get out of hand. I’m “the mama” and I have to stay boss, even if I have to use force to prove it.

Needs2know

42

So, what if when he grows up and starts hitting his wife?
I’m not saying you’re a bad mother…and yes, sometimes there ARE times for restraint…physical, I mean.
I still don’t see how spanking is bad. My most hated punishment as a child were time outs and having some of my toys taken away.

Like I said, what you NEED to develope is a “Look”, like the one my dad had…ooohh…I’d see that face when I was little and just start crying…it was enough.

43

I agree that if your child attempts to hurt you, you have every right to use force to prevent tham from harming you (although certainly you should not start whaling on them out of revenge; just restrain them enough to get them to stop). But if you’re depending primarily on your superior physical strength to enforce rules and maintain authority, you won’t have any means of doing this once you lose that advantage. They may respect or fear your ability to physically harm them if they misbehave when they’re small, but what about when you can’t do that anymore, since they’re bigger and stronger than you?

In my circumstances, the thoughht of physically challenging either of my parents honestly never occured to me. I could probably beat up my mom (actually imagining doing so is highly disturbing, though; you just don’t do that). However, my mom taught me that you never hit anyone except to protect yourself or another person, and she didn’t teach this just with words; she practiced what she preached. Once (and only once) she did spank one of us kids, and afterwards she apologized profusely, told us that what she did was wrong and why it was wrong. The fact that she honestly evaulated her own actions and held them to the same moral code she demanded from us made a big impression on me.

44

I never meant to say that I advocate spanking. I’m not sure that I do. I was rarely spanked. Never by my mother that I can remember. Several times by my beloved grandmother, who I grew up to love and respect far more than my own mother, not because of the spankings but despite them I’d say. I think what I’ve been trying to do since I lost control so badly of our lives for awhile there is to establish a certain amount of power over my children. I know that might sound a little over the top but I can’t think of a better way of putting it. Of course I do not advocate violence and my everyday actions bare this out. But as many have stated in this thread, many parents seem to not be able to exercise their parental authority. I suppose it would be nice to be able to say you are a “pal” to your kids but in the end I think they have the opportunity to make plenty of friends. Getting a decent set of parents is a lot harder. And perhaps that is my problem too, I’m single and their father is there but “not there”. If you know what I mean. He sees them on the weekend but for the most part he is completely ineffectual as a parent. There are no life lessons to be learned by visiting dad every other weekend except maybe that he seems to value his relationship with his current wife more than he does he relationship with his children.

I think raising your kids single might just put a little different spin on things anyway. I’m just out here floundering around in the dark like the rest of you. I refuse to read too many books or drive myself crazy with theories. I don’t have time for it anyway. The laundry needs doing, my son needs help with his reading, my daughter has a ball game at 6:00, and now we have a dog! I’m going by trial and error. I know that despite any mistakes I might make my children know who loves them and who takes care of them. They know who will stand by them and be there for them when they need guidance. That’s the best I can do.

Needs2know

45

Couple points:

  1. Age makes an enourmous difference. Swatting a 2 year old on the bottom is not degrading; makeing a 10 year old drop her pants is.

  2. Toddlers are not logical, and the world is dangerous. Based on these two ideas I think there is a very short list of things where is is probably the best choice to use pain to condition your child at once not to do certain things. This list includes things like climbing out of the car seat when the car is in motion, running out into the street, sticking paper clips in electrical sockets,playing with matches, etc. There are things you can not afford to let a child try twice.

3)Kids vary alot. What is effective on one makes no difference to another. I am one of six children. Some of us responded to spanking, others responded to other forms of disiplene. Fear of spanking woked great for me; pain just made my little siter sullen and resentful. On the other hand, I didn’t really socialize much, or watch television–bout the only privledge they could have taken away from me would have been to take my library card, something that I’m sure no parent would want to do. You have to know your kids and adjust your disipline plans accordingly.

4)Spanking, like all punishment, needs to be 100% consistiant and never linked to a parent’s emotional state. Otherwise, kids don’t learn “X is bad”; instead they learn “Don’t let mama get irritated”. I think this is where you get people that think there is no right or wrong, only caught and uncaught; growing up there actions had little to due with there life–whether or not mama was PMSing or Daddy was tired was a much bigger factor, and in self-defense they learned to pay more attention to these issues than to thier own, ineffective, actions. With the exceptioon of situations such as detailed in #2, my parents always made sure they calmed down before they administered any kind of punishment. It was always “Go to your room and think about what you’ve done”. An hour or so later they would come in with the verdict. That hour was the real punishment–whatever came after was a relief!

Obviously, you dont HAVE to spank a child to disiplene one. But it is important that children have some sort of structure and disiplene. Not everyone realizes this: my mother-in-law seems to feel that any structure or restraint placed on children will permently cripple their spiritual and emotional growth. I thnk that such a philosophy is almost a form of abuse–sending children into the world with no ability to regulate thier own behavior is not doing them or the rest of us anyfavors.

46

As I posted before: http://www.tcs.ac

They believe children should have the same rights as adults, and should never have a moment’s discomfort, or be told what to do, school is a prison, and discipline is a dirty word with these people.

47

I don’t remember ever being spanked as a child. My parents did everything in their power to prevent violence between my siblings and I, and held themselves up to the same standard. I have even talked to them relatively recently about raising children.

I believe that the purpose of spanking should not be to reinforce negative behavior with pain. I think the shame of being spanked is a more powerful motivator than the pain. The pain fades quickly, and is easier to endure the next time it happens. However, if parents somehow set up spanking to the most shameful, babyish, and humiliating form of punishment, then perhaps it would be more effective. Rather than threatening pain, threaten shame. This might not work for every child, but I am sure it will work for some.

MR

48

I agree that failing to discipline children is a form of neglect as surely as failing to feed them or provide them with clothing or shelter. What I don’t understand is why so many of us are unable to distinguish between discipline (look it up – it really is spelled that way, and perhaps reading the definition will help you understand what I’m saying) and spanking. I’m a nut on the subject of discipline with my kids. I’m far stricter than many parents of my acquaintance. I consider it my responsibility to my children, myself, and the rest of the world to teach my children appropriate ways to behave and to respect others. The goal (no one’s perfect, but this is what I strive for) is first of all to ensure that my kids understand what they should do, then to expect that they will do so, and to correct them in an effective manner when they fail to meet that expectation.

The reasons that I do not believe spanking to be an effective way of disciplining a child are manifold, but they include:

[ul]
[li]the utter lack of any solid evidence that it is so[/li][li]the availability of any number of studies showing no correlation between behavior and use of spanking by parents[/li][li]the very real possibility that the spanking, not the misbehavior, becomes the focus of both the child’s and the parent’s attention[/li][li]the introduction of force and violence by the more powerful party into a relationship that has to be predicated on respect, trust, and love[/li][li]the opportunity it affords for the parent to act out of anger or resentment, allowing the vengeful aspect of punishing the child to dominate[/li][li]the strong likelihood that the spanking will take the place of other tactics that are more likely to be successful.[/li][/ul]

I’m not condemning parents who do occasionally spank their kids. I don’t believe that an occasional spanking is likely to have significant adverse effects on either the children or their parents. I certainly believe that any attempt to criminalize such behavior is woefully misguided. But I have to return to the question I asked in the first few lines of my first post in this thread: why, if it isn’t likely to result in a better-behaved child, would I want to hit one of my children? The only answers that suggest themselves are unfortunate ones: to coerce them into doing what I want them to do rather than teach them how to behave, or to vent my frustration by lashing out physically at someone who can’t defend himself.

49

I’m an adult and nobody ever told me I had those rights. Wow, my civil rights are being infringed: I have to adhere to discipline (laws), I’m told what to do constantly (laws and job), I go to a prison (school and job), and I have discomfort all the time!

Who can I sue?

Seriously, that crap makes me sick. If children know so much and deserve to have a say in everything, why not let them vote and send them out into the world to seek their fortunes as soon as they know how to talk? Hell, it’s obvious after reading over that site that parents aren’t even necessary at all, since children are so logical and rational as they claim.

What a bunch of drivel. The reason adults raise and teach and guide children is that children do NOT know what is best for themselves, and in fact have no concept whatsoever of what they need, only what they want.

50

Those ppl are the Peta of children’s rights. Children’s rights should be protected more than they are at times. Specifially, I do think they should video confessions of children to crimes and in other way protect children’s rights when in the justice system. A case last year showed how vulnerable children are. Two preteens were suspects for a murder and had confessed. Only when semem of a known criminal was found on the body did the police admit they might have erred.

When I was a child and I complained about various abuse to my mother and father, I was not taken seriously. I told my mother that my aunt beat me, that certain babysitters hit me and that i was beaten up in school and on the bus nearly daily and I was ignored. My brother beat me with what ever was handy, including a metal ashtray stand. I had bruises to prove my statements many times and it was dismissed as not important. Any violence from fellow children, I was supposed to cope with and learn how to not get them to beat me up. Any violence from adults was viewed as disipline and my complaints viewed as exaggerations.

I think children have a right to live without being beaten and their caregivers have a responsibility to do something about their children being beaten up.

51

The problem I have with all of the studies cited is the determination of cause and effect. For example, one study surveyed prison inmates who were in for violent crimes. The study showed a huge majority of those inmates were “abused” as kids (abuse was defined as anything from an occasional spanking to beatings). Therefore, the study concluded that abuse (including spankings) led to higher rates of incarceration.

I bet I could come up with a study that showed that bedtimes directly correlates to discipline problems (kids that stay up later tend to get in trouble more). Would this be a valid study or really prove anything? Not really.

How do you correlate discipline as a child to any behavior as an adult? As Mark Twain said, there’s lies, damn lies, and statistics.

52

Rackensack, what do you think about the use of spanking to condition toddlers not to preform behavior that is dangerous? The most basic job of a parent is to keep a child alive until they reach 18; everything else is garnish. As I remember from Pych 101, the second quickest form of opererant conditioning is shock/pain (Nausea is first, but almost impossible to administer aws a parent). For certain specific activities it seems to me that the most important priority is making sure that the behavior is not repeated, not even once. In my own experence, techniques such as time out, taking away away privledges, etc. work, but with toddlers they take 4 or 5 or more iterations before the toddler gets the idea. Thsi is fine for dealing with misbehavior, but you cannot have a child try to stick paperclips in the wall socket 5 times. Now, you may think that in a well-regulatted house there are not oppurtunities for paperclips and wall sockets, and playing with matches and such things, but if you take a child out into the world (which I think is importatnt) you have to condition them not to do certain thinkgs the very first time they try it.

53

Mandajo, regarding spanking toddlers - a friend of mine had a system that worked very well. When his son did something that warranted quick discipline, he scooped him up in his arms, with his face very close to his son’s face, so that that his son couldn’t look anywhere except into his father’s face to see the expression on his face - which varied from shock to horror depending on what the son just did. He then said very sternly, “[Name], Daddy was really scared/hurt/etc. when you [action]. When you [action], you could [consequence].” Then he would talk about what the child could have done instead. Sure at 2, his son didn’t know exactly what he was talking about, but he saw his error reflected in his father’s face - and it got the point across in a non-violent manner. BTW, his son was the most well-behaved toddler (and child) I have ever known and was never spanked. Now I don’t think this would work with an older child, but worked well for his toddler.

I was spanked as a child and it did me no good. I learned to be sneaky, to lie, and at first to fear my parents, later to defy them. Because of spanking there was no communication between child and parent other than the sound of the belt smacking the butt and Mom yelling, “You will never ever do this again” or something along those lines. They were also the type to answer an appeal with, “because I said so”. They were the law and we were always guilty and never allowed to prove our innocence. Don’t get me wrong, they didn’t beat me senseless or anything. Sometimes it didn’t even hurt, but we weren’t really disciplined; we were punished, and sometimes didn’t understand why we were being punished or even what the appropriate action should have been.

Being the oldest I was the guinea pig. They later learned with my younger sister that they couldn’t spank her because she’d be black and blue and just as defiant - stubborn to the end. They ended up sending her to her room (still no explanation - just “think about what you did”) because she hated to be banished. My brother got a combination of both - spankings and sent to his room.

Still, we didn’t grow up to be evil people. I am honest in society, have a job, never robbed, cheated, or killed, but I still have a very hard time being open and honest with my mother, though I know she wouldn’t dare spank me at my age.

How will I discipline my son? It will depend on what works best for him. I like the method that my friend used for the toddler years, but also realize that it may be ineffective for my son. I know that I must communicate with him, there must be clear consequences for his actions, and I have to be consistant and practice what I preach. I think there are a lot of alternatives to spanking, and I would only use it as a last resort. I never liked acting out of anger, either. When I’m angry with someone, I like to cool off and approach him/her calmly and rationally and discuss the problem rather than letting tempers flare and saying things I will later regret.

The fact is, discipline is hard work. Many parents don’t want to follow through with it, are too tired, etc., etc. Another factor affecting the behavior of children is the family structure itself. 30-40 years ago the typical home had two parents, the father worked outside the home, and the mother worked inside the home taking care of the house and children. There were two parents to discipline a child and to support one another in their efforts. The mother was with the younger children all day, observed their behavior first hand, and was probably pretty adept at nipping inappropriate behavior in the bud. (She didn’t have to wait for a call/note from daycare - she could take immediate action.) In these days, in many households, both parents (if there are indeed 2) work outside the home and therefore have less contact with their children. If their toddler is biting at daycare they then have to deal with that in their limited time in the evening and on weekends and hope that the daycare deals with it during the day. I don’t want to start a stay at home parent vs. working parent debate; I just want to point out that the job of discipline is harder the less time you spend with your children. If you work outside of the home, are a single or divorced parent, are ill or facing a crisis of some sort, your job as disciplinarian is going to be harder. But the reward is worth all the work.

(FTR I am a single parent - and was very interested in Needs2know’s posts. We all wear different shoes.)

54

A study exists whose methodology was flawed, or from which the authors drew conclusions not warranted by the data. Therefore, no study exists that can tell us anything useful. Is that really the argument you want to make?

I bet you could. Would it be a valid study? Depends on how well it was constructed, whether it controlled for other factors, etc. Would finding a correlation between bedtimes and behavior indicate that one causes the other? Not necessarily. But finding no correlation between two factors suggests that either one has no effect on the other or that there are so many other factors involved that any dependence between them is masked by the other factors. My contention has been that the preponderance of the evidence accumulated to date argues against the proposition that spanking is effective in improving the behavior of children at any age. I’ve never said that spanking turns children into monsters, criminals, or game show hosts. I have said that there’s no evidence that spanking them prevents them from doing so. I have taken it as a given that in any particular situation parents are more likely to either spank or use other tactics, but not do both. If there’s no correlation between one approach and the desired result, and there is between the other approach and the desired result, and I’m going to choose between them, which should I choose?

Again, your argument seems to be that statistical correlations between factors are useless in determining causal relationships between them. You can of course construct infinite numbers of spurious correlations: death in a car wreck is highly correlated with proximity to vulcanized rubber (in car tires). This of course doesn’t mean that proximity to vulcanized rubber causes traffic fatalities. Properly designed, however, and controlling for other factors, studies that use statistics to identify correlations between factors are essential to any kind of progress. Are you ready for drug companies to abandon clinical trials of new drugs on the basis that nothing useful can be learned from them, simply shoving new compounds out into the market and collecting no data on their effects (positive or negative)?

55

Taking things slightly out of order . . . .

I really hope that you’d reconsider that statement on further reflection. Certainly keeping the kid alive is a necessary precondition for anything else, but I can’t regard it as sufficient.

I really do understand the reasoning behind this argument. As you may have deduced by now, however, I’m not much of a Skinnerian. Neither, I think you’ll find, are most of the psychologists, neurologists, and other scientists who’ve contributed most to recent gains in our understanding of how children learn and develop. I really have spent a lot of time reading not just the pet theories of the various child-rearing “experts”, but whatever I’ve been able to find on the development of the brain and mind in infants and children, in an effort to base what I do as firmly as possible on what is likely to work. The most complete overview of the subject I know of is Lise Eliot’s What’s Going on in There? : How the Brain and Mind Develop in the First Five Years of Life.

I do think that the approach suggested by h_thur is the most appropriate – it’s worked well for me so far with my son (now 3) and daughter (14 months). First step: remove the child from the dangerous situation in whatever way is required. Next step: demonstrate by your demeanor, words, and actions how dangerous what he did was and how upset you are about it – not by yelling at the child, but by tone of voice, facial expression, etc. The youngest toddlers won’t understand many of the words, but they’re remarkably adept at understanding emotion and reading expression. You’re expressing your concern for their welfare and your fear that their actions might have endangered them. You’re not introducing an unfamiliar element of pain and what must be perceived by the child as anger into a situation that requires that the child be as receptive as possible to what you’re saying.

I realize that sounds hopelessly namby-pamby to many, but I have rarely, if ever, had to use this approach more than once for any specific action. Perhaps the greatest benefit is that it isn’t limited to ex post facto use the way swatting bottoms or hands is. If we’re in a situation that I perceive to be potentially dangerous, I can adopt the same tone of voice and demeanor and explain in advance what they shouldn’t do, and it has the same effect as when I do it in reaction to something they’ve done. I can’t very well spank them ahead of time and say “That’s to remind you not to climb over that railing,” now can I?

Kids under 7 are decidedly bad at generalizing from one situation to others, however, so a ton of vigilance is still worth more than an ounce of whuppin’ or warning.

Actually, I think nothing of the sort. We’ve done our best to minimize opportunities for our kids to get hurt in and around our home, but they still find ways that amaze us. As I said above, the approach I use allows me to deal with potentially dangerous situations, at home or abroad, before the first instance of trouble, not in reaction to it.

56

I find it interesting that so many posters assume that there is a clear line between “appropriate spanking” and abuse.

Some parents are able to consistently spank in a restrained way, but many others edge onto the slippery slope between “spanking” and “beating.” My father was one whose spankings turned into blows and kicks.

I’m not going to get near that slippery slope. I have to wonder whether my upbringing has given me potential to turn into an abuser. I have seen no evidence of violent tendencies in myself, but I’m not going to take that chance. I will not spank my kids.

57

I could’ve written that. I was spanked, slapped, and punched. I had nose bleeds as well as welts from “switches.”

You know how it affected me? First, I was made to be afraid of my parents–not a good thing. Secondly, when I grew enough, and they once again ganged up on me (for not cleaning my room), we finally had ourselves a free-for-all…wherein I kicked some ass and advised them to never, ever lay a hand on me again. They never did.

Lastly, long before my son was born, I made a decision -a vow- that the abuse would stop with me. I have never spanked, hit, or otherwise struck my son. Luckily, he’s the kind of kid that responds well to verbal discipline.

Spanking may work for others; that’s all well and good. I, on the other hand, could not raise my hand against my son.

One more note: If some kind of force/pain multiplier (switch, belt, hair brush, etc.) is used, that’s abuse in my eyes. Isn’t an open hand enough?

58

I think that too many parents are so quick to spank when it comes to tantrums and fits and the like. Also, I’ve noticed that people who spank (especially out in public) tend to go for extremes…(like if the kid turns his head to look at something)
Last week, I saw a guy in KrapMart take his screaming child calmly out of the store, carrying the child and just smiling at everyone. THAT was the best approach, in my opinion. When I threw a tantrum, my parents left the room…depriving me of the audience I craved.