In viewing the thread about theWWII Stuka dive bomberI wondered if a modern air to air to air heat seeking missile would track & shoot down an older propeller driver fighter plane. I ask because I assume the heat signature is much smaller on these older planes than on a modern fighter jet.
Very modern heat-seeking missles, such as the more recent versions of Sidewinder, will identify and home in on most anything, even the friction of air against the leading edges of the wings. A Sidewinder from 40 years ago might have had some trouble.
And of course, today’s jet fighers also (mostly, actually) carry radar-guided missiles, which wouldn’t have any trouble at all.
In any event, a Stuka (or any other WWII plane) will have thrown off plenty of heat from its engine - not like a modern jet fighter, but more than enough.
Second-generation Sidewinder missiles from 40 years ago were tested before flight with something that looked like a penlight but had a dark filtered lens so no light showed. It was powered by two AA batteries, and the heat seeking unit could pick it up at a surprising distance.
Missiles would work just fine, be they radar, IR or TV guided. I wonder about guns, though.
See, Me-262 pilots (that early Nazi jet fighter) actually had problems dogfighting with other fighting planes because the jets were going so fast compared to prop planes, the German pilot only had a split second shooting window before zooming right past its target. Hence they were employed against bombers, which were much easier targets - they don’t dodge all over the place 
I wonder if modern jets would have similar problems… Of course, WW2 pilots didn’t have any fancy computer assisted gunnery or on-board radar or visual target tracking aids on the HUD.
My dad once told me that he saw a Sidewinder demonstration. I don’t remember the context or year. As an enlisted man he was Combat Aircrew in AEW Skyraiders, and served aboard Philippine Sea and Lexington. He was commissioned in '56, I think, and served aboard CLG-5 Oklahoma City in Communications, and then finished out his career in San Diego at FLEASWTRACENPAC. Given that the Sidewinder is an air-to-air missile, I can only guess that the demonstration was sometime in the '50s.
At any rate, the missile was set up on a stand. Some distance away an officer lit a cigarette and waved it around. The fins on the missile ‘followed’ the cigarette.
Me-262s were using slow-firing machine cannons (and later, unguided rockets.)
Today’s jet fighters carry multi-barreled rotary weapons capable of spraying bullets in almost ridiculous quantities at ranges that would have seemed impossible in 1945. And, of course, the jet fighter has highly advanced target assist technology.
Furthermore, your F-15 pilot carving up the Stuka formation can slow down if he wants and fly just as slowly as a pretty quick WWII fighter. If he needs to bug out he can hit the afterburners and run away. One of the reasosns Me-262 pilots had trouble hitting things is that they always had to be flying fast. The Me-262 was a jet fighter but not in the sense we understand it today; its huge, primitive engines had high top speed but they accelerated slowly, and the plane was only a bit more maneuverable than a house. If the 262 lost it speed advantage in range of enemy fire it was up the creek.
Not so much… the revolver cannon developed for the Me262s (Mauser MG 213)were the genesis of the vast majority of non-Gatling style fighter cannon, including the ADEN and DEFA cannons, and the Mauser BK-27 used on the Eurofighter Typhoon, the JAS Gripen and the Panavia Tornado.
The MG 213 fired about 1000 rounds per minute, but with the advantage of having a much faster initial rate of fire than a gatling, due to the fact that all you have to spin up on a revolver cannon is the cylinders, not the entire barrel.
At one time, I calculated the recoil from the Gatling gun on the F-16. IIRC, it was something like 25-30,000 pounds. Imagine the effect at the receiving end…
And this just made my day.
Heh, that’s impressive allright. Apparently, early versions of the missile commonly locked on the Sun itself, or reflections of it on the ground. Wonder how exactly they managed to tweak that behavior out, while still keeping such a hair-trigger seeking mechanism.
Ignorance fought twice. Not only did I figure a jet plane would stall at prop plane speeds, but I didn’t know that the Mé-262 was a flying brick. Thanks !
They only fought at night. Moonless ones.
Heh. Reminds me of that scene in Robocop where the big ambulatory mechanical cop warns the guy to drop the gun, doesn’t notice he did, and tracks him all over the room while the poor sot tries to evade certain death.
The MG 213 was never once used in combat. It’s interesting from a historical point of view but, obviously, doesn’t have anything to do with how Me-262s performed. Most 262 models mounted Mk108 machine cannons.
That is a Darwin Award just waiting to happen, isn’t it?
One would expect it was a demonstration missile, with the propellant and warhead removed.
Another thread that may be of interest: "The Final Countdown": Tomcats vs. Zeros - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board
Sounds impressive at first but a cigarette at a couple meters away could have more IR output than a jet engine at a few kilometers away.
Take into account that this was (probably) in the '50s, when heat-seekers were still fairly new. Also, it was likely an orientation demonstration rather than a demonstration of the absolute limits of the technology.
Althought it’s not really relevant, I can’t resist pointing out that the reason the snail-speed Swordfish (essentially a “typical” WWI biplane (!) with some modifications) was able to inflict catastrophic damage on the state-of-the-art battleship Bismarck (other than luck) was that the Bismarck’s guns panned too quickly to keep the slow-moving Swordfish in their sights.
When the Bismarck’s anti-aircraft guns and system were designed, the assumption was that any attacking plane would have a speed of at least ‘X’ mph, and thus set a lower limit for the AA guns’ tracking speed. So, when the Swordfish attacked with a speed of something less than ‘X’, the Bismarck’s fire control system would always aim the AA guns in front of the plane even when used at its slowest setting.
Many moons ago when I was just a fledgling pilot, I knew some WWII fighter pilots. They said that if they had to stay and fight, they would lose to a good WWI fighter pilot that had a big tree on his side.