actually, no. i just meant a “saintly” person who did nothing but help others and cure lepers. what if they never had a religious thought in their life?
I must take issue with the portion I have underlined. Romans make clear that someone who turns away from keeping the Gospel will be torn from the tree of life.
Paul, talking to the Gentiles regarding Jews who have not accepted the Gospel, in Romans:
hapaXL – if it is any consilation, the Catholics do believe, basically, in salvation through works alone, but I don’t have time to look up the relevant passage of their teachings for you right now.
I’ve really got to send that nice John Paul II a little note to thank him for saving me all this typing…
Catholic belief again:
Well, that raises another question: Did Bundy choose to be a sociopath? What if Bundy had no choice about being who he was?
Me, too, though it was a sermon about how one of the Manson Family was now born-again and about how he’d now go to Heaven even though he helped Manson kill seven people. I realized that what the preacher was saying was that a murderer was going to Heaven, whereas it was possible that all of his victims were now in Hell.
I didn’t think that was particularly fair or right or just or merciful.
My guess?
Hitler was reincarnated as Polish Jewish Lesbian. Poetic justice-you know, he comes back as something he tried to destroy. Now he’s back in the other person’s place.
Wouldn’t it be weird?
Heh.
I wish you were sitting next to me in religion class at Our Lady Of Perpetual Guilt.
Well…I invite you to read the Scriptures and ask the Lord to open your eyes.
jmullaney, I’m sorry but I can’t seem to find the chapter you took your passage from. I would like to discuss it with you if you could give me a clearer reference. Thank you.
I don’t think Hitler is in heaven. I could be wrong, but there is absolutely no indication that Hitler felt any remorse over the things he had done. If he did have a last-second conversion, he wouldn’t functionally be the same person who advocated the destruction of Jews, Gypsies, and just about any other minority group he didn’t like. Even if Hitler did make it into heaven it would’ve been by the skin of his teeth, and everything that made Hitler worthy of hell would be absent.
An unlikely scenario, don’t you think?
Guinastasia:
If I believed in reincarnation, I couldn’t think of a more appropriate fate for old Adolph.
~~Baloo
This is a very interesting question that can be extended to anyone who does evil things. How would the theologians here answer it? With something along the lines that we are all free agents who choose our actions?
Hitler was a sociopath & a megalomaniac- he thought what he was doing was “right”, thus, his personality would never have allowed him to “repent’. Yes, if he could have repented- he could have been saved- but his personality, which to a large extent he developed himsef- would not allow him to admit being 'wrong”. If he was the kind of person that would have repented- he would not have done all those terrible things.
Its like saying- “if Hitler had a conscience- would it have bothered him to do all those terrible things?”. However, if he had possess a conscience- there would not have been so many terrible things to be bothered over.
Re Bundy- not all sociopaths become mass murderers. Some, although they truly do not know what is right and wrong- seek & accept guidance from others. Bundy did not think his actions were “morally wrong”- but he did know they were illegal, and that OTHERS thought they were morally wrong. Thus, altho he did not have that “inner voice” most of us have- he did have “outer voices” to listen to. And he did not.
Very interesting debate.
jenkinsfan:
Does that mean you do not know the answer, or are you trying to convert him? I’m confused here.
Guin:
Heh. Good one. Poetic justice in its best form. Of course, if reincarnation works in reverse time, he could end up as a string of his own Holocaust victims. Slowly regaining his karma by dying over and over in a hell of his own creation.
I’m a Catholic and I don’t basically believe this. I would appreciate your cite of the relevant passage(when you have time).
Thanks
elshpen:
(A) Yes, Christianity, generally, excludes no-one from redemption IF their repentance and turning to God is real and honest. According to the Gospel, true repentance and redemption must involve a process by which the person is “Born Anew,” by which he/she is transformed and cleansed. But NOT ALL Christian Churches believe this is always or even often an instantaneous, miraculous transformation: some view it as a process, requiring sustained effort on your part. And in either case, the believer is admonished to make it his priority to atone to those he has hurt by his sin
(B) However, as pointed out earlier in the thread, the various Christian churches believe in one form or another of eternal damnation for the terminally unrepentant sinner (and obviously for the phony-repentant).
© Catholicism has never officially taught “salvation by works alone” (though in the Middle Ages it allowed the belief to go on unchecked, for financial and political gain); it does teach that “Faith, without works, is dead” i.e. you gotta walk the walk if you talk the talk.
(D) “Free Will” vs. “predestination” IS a point of divergence between and even within various Christian denominations. It is NOT a universal belief of Christian churches that you can’t “backslide” and become hellbound again – though those who say otherwise will claim that in such case, your conversion wasn’t real in the first place.
(E) The “Unforgivable Sin” is referred to as “Blaspheming the Holy Spirit” in the Christian Scripture but there is debate as to what it means specifically. Interpretations include such things as maliciously attributing God’s work to the forces of evil, terminal defiant unrepentance, obstinate denial of the common status as children of God of all. This sin would be apparently symptomatic of someone who has become evil to his very essence, such that the person incurring in it will NOT be able to call out “Jesus, My Lord and My Savior!!” and MEAN it.
(F) In Catholicism/Orthodoxy, there is also the concept of Purgatory, by which the repented, redeemed sinner must STILL, prior to moving on to Heaven, undergo some hell-like punishment for any mortal sins for which he was not able to atone while on Earth.
(G) Having convinced yourself that the evil you were doing was the right and moral thing to do, and thus feeling no remorse or repentance, doesn’t count for s**t, you still get set on fire. Evil is evil. It’s even worse if you were shown the right way and you maliciously decided to go against it. As also pointed out earlier, most forms of Christianity subscribe to a doctrine that certain evils can never be “necessary” ones – including murder.
(H) A.H. did not just ignore all the values of Christianity (as so many do) but actively worked to subvert and pervert them (and yes, he had large crowds who were quite willing to go along), adopted a worldview in denial of any greater power than his own will; was prideful, spiteful, aggressive and destructive; rejected and punished good advice, encouraged and rewarded distrust, fraud and betrayal; scorned life and destroyed it gratuitiously, and seems, by all accounts, to have remained obstinately and reaffirmedly unrepentant to the very last breath.
BUT many brands of Christians are constrained by their teachings to only say that it’s likely he’s spending the afterlife as Satan’s personal bitch. Can’t state it as a certainty. Theoretically that’s also the case even of JUDAS
OTOH there are brands of Christianity that will quite happily sentence most of the other Christians to the fires of hell just because they don’t agree on finer points of doctrine, so I’m sure they’d have no problem giving you an assurance that A.H. is getting brimstone colonics as we speak.
(I) If the possibility that some loathsome character may be theoretically allowed a shot at redemption – and that it’s God only and by whatever standard She applies that has to be satisfied, and not John Q. Public – is off-putting to the observer, well, what can I say, sorry. That’s the whole point. Carry on and never mind the Christians, then.
jrd
IMHO, ol’ Adolph’s intentions were pretty clear. No matter how he felt, there is simply no way to justify what he did.
I can’t convert him. That is something only God can do. I’m just asking Him to give God a chance.
Anyone can go to heaven. It costs you nothing! (Jeffery Dahmer accepted Jesus 3 months before his death by as Faith Assembly of God Pastor)
If you believe Jesus is the Son of God
That He died on the cross
That he rose from the dead in fulfillment of the scriptures
If you say “Jesus is my personal savior”
Then you have the key to get into Heaven.
For EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord of Lords
::hijack:: (can I do this to my own thread?)
And if one doesn’t believe this? For example, if one happens to be an observant, Jewish type person? Or does your version of Christianity say that I’m forbidden from entering heaven?
In orthodox Jewish thought, one can get into heaven even if one is from another religion. According to what you are saying, plenty of worthy people will be excluded because they don’t think that Jesus is their personal savior.
elshpen, you are asking a Christian if there is any other way to Heaven besides Jesus Christ. I am guessing Delila would say there isn’t any other way.
(hijack-hope you don’t mind) Who do Jews think Jesus was?