One, two, three …
A nice Jewish boy who got mixed up in his father’s business 
(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
I’m not up on specifics (Zev, where are you?), but I do know Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud. I believe he may be called Rabbi, but I’m not sure. However, he is not associated with any divinity or special holiness.
FYI, Jews believe that the messiah will come once, and that he has not come yet. One of the Thirteen Principles of Faith, written by the great Jewish sage Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (Maimonides), says:"I believe with perfect faith that Moshiach (the Messiah) will come, and although he tarries, I await daily for his coming."
Just a few corrections on anotherwise good post!
Not true. I found the relevant portion of the catechism finally:
Wrong. Per the RCC, anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to hell. Purgatory has been proposed as a possiblity for people who may have some venial sins.
jenkinsfan – the part of Romans I was quoting was chapter 11.
jmullaney, I urge you to read the chapter in the context it is written in. Paul by no means is trying to tell people they can lose their salvation. He is very careful to stress that point by beginning the chapter with these verses:
Christians are saved by grace. They don’t earn their savlation, therefore, they can do nothing to lose it. Those who were “cast off” in the passages you quoted above never believed.
Sorry, jenkinsfan – but I see nothing in those verses which support your idea. All he says is that God’s people are those remnant Jews who are obediant to Christ a.k.a. God’s will – and that, as we would say, genetics have nothing to do with it.
Paul quite clearly says to those to whom he is writing, who are described as being obediant to Christ’s teachings, that if they do not persist in God’s kindness they will be “broken off.” He tells them to be afraid of such a possibility. If as you claim, they have nothing to fear, what Paul says doesn’t make any sense.
I don’t think the word “unbelief” has the connotation which you are trying to give it. Your connotation isn’t inline with what Jesus himself said: “he who sets his hand to the plow and turns back is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.” Again, in parable, he gives the example of the good servant who decides, since the master has been long in coming, to become wicked. The master doesn’t return and say “well, you were a good servant for a while so it doesn’t matter that you became a bad servant” but instead gives the servant a beating.
(While I don’t want to hijack this into a faith vs. works thread, I do agree with the Catholic Church, Jesus, St. James, St. John, and St. Paul-half-the-time that works are necessary for salvation and maintain that any other understanding is contrary to the true Christian faith.)
If Hitler repented and truely meant it (only God could really know this) he would be in heaven, but I think it’s highly unlikely that he was sorry! If he commited suicide, he cannot make it into heaven.
Once a person has asked for forgiveness and believes in Jesus, they are forgiven. If a person backslides which means doing things they are not suppose to be doing as a Christian, he can ask for forgiveness again.
This doesn’t mean I can do whatever I want and after I’m done God will forgive me when I ask, you must be sincere, and God knows you, so if your not you will not be forgiven. I guess different kinds of Christians believe different thing though.
Many ‘good’ people (or so we thought) have gone bad.
I believe that once a Christian always a Christian. If your not now you never were, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be if you never were. I am non-denomination Christian…
Elsphen,
I imagine by now you’ve discovered that there’s no one christian church and that there’s a wide variance of belief and attitudes between many of the denominations.
At least one denomination believes that Jesus was not the literal son of God, and that alone tends to freak a lot of other denominations.
© What we have in the first case may be an interpretation problem as to the meaning of “salvation by works alone.” The key in the quote from the catechism, to me, is in the phrase “seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance to his understanding” which I read as that there be some spiritual impetus working upon the non-believer in order to lead a righteous life and seek a greater purpose; something beyond his knowing it’s illegal to steal or tax-deductible to donate to charity; not necessarily (capital F)Faith, but if you will, a (small f)faith in that there must be some purpose to it all.
(f) That’s right, what we have there is a gross editing oversight (fingers stuck “mortal” in, eyes didn’t catch) on my part. (Although there is among some Catholics the folk belief – rather than doctrine – that you do get some time in P for even duly absolved mortal sins, in order to avoid precisely the sort of unfair-in-human-eyes situation that the OP presents)
jrd
I see where you are coming from, which is why I threw the word “basically” in there when I made my original statement. Seeking and doing are essentially works, and there is still the question of under what conditions the ignorance through no fault of their own kicks in.
Fuck this. If Hitler is in heaven, I’d rather be in Hell.
capacitor just alluded to one of my favorite proofs that there could never be a real “heaven” … yes, according to christianity hitler could repent and go to heaven (if he was sincere, and who wouldn’t be sincere to avoid hell). But - if you were good your whole life, could heaven be “heaven” for you if hitler was there?
What if you were a great christian, but hated black people? Nowhere in the bible does it say hating black people is a sin… there are quite a lot of jesus-loving christians who are total biggots… surely they are not all going to burn in hell for all of eternity? So, what if you got to heaven and low and behold, there were black people there. Would it cease to be heaven? Or… is heaven segregated? Doubtful. Or do we “all just become one glorious color in the face of god” or some bs like that? No way… or else we’d cease to be ourselves, and that would mean nobody would go to heaven (which is my basic presumption, b/c there is none).
There are many people who would not want Hitler to be in their heaven (including myself). So, if he is there, then it’s no heaven. hitler is an extreme example, and it’s easy for people to just say “no way he’s in heaven, no matter what.” What about someone less “obviously” evil? What about Bill Clinton? I don’t want him in heaven with me. What about Nixon? I like Dick, but I bet a lot of you don’t want him in heaven with you. What about Bobby Knight? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson?
Bottom line is… there ain’t no heaven, so live it up now.
Question: Which Christian denomination(s) do not believe that Jesus was not the son of God? Just wondering. (Sorry for the hijack)
Sorry! I meant, “which denomination(s) do not believe that Jesus was the son of God?”
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Since Hitler did not beleive in g-d Heaven or hell- he could hardly repent. Nor, did he, as far as we know (nothing about him getting religion at the last moment). You can rest assured Hitler is “between the onions & the peppers on Satan’s shishkabob”.
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Crikeys- did you ever READ the Gospels? What is JC’s one big message, over & over? “Love one another…” “Do unto others…”- BE TOLERANT!!!. Thus- those “christain bigots”- if they go to their grave hating black folk- will wake up in Hell. Now, in my Church- they get another chance to really, truely repent- and if they do so- they are saved. But some bigots- the kind that won’t WANT to be in a heaven that allowed “darkies”- will stay in Hell. Some other, casual bigots, who are that way because that is their backdround- could well repent- then they won’t mind sharing Heaven.
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Heaven will be a very big place- with lots of “mansions” ie you would likely be in another one than Bill. If Bill is a repentant sinner- he still has quite a few under his belt- and will unlikely be a candidate for sainthood (nor will I).
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What make YOU think you’re going to Heaven, or that you’ll have a choice? You might end up giving spongebaths to Bill for all eternity.
Really? I always thought he was Lutheran or something. 
Didn’t he go to church on Sunday like any other leader of a Chrustian nation?
That’s hardly established, DITWD. I am curious how you know with such certainty what Hitler believed; the evidence is conflicting at best. See David’s article: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html
Well, G- I read that article myself- and it seems to conclude that Hitlers mentions of god, church & religion (in a favorable light) were simply there to appease the great majority of his constituents, many of whom were deeply religous.
Note that the Army took personal oaths of loyalty to Hitler- and many considered thatoath the only thing that stooped them from turning against Hitler. However, to many of the more Religous, if Hitler had publically repudiated Jesus- that would have released them from the oaths.
So- is the evidence 100% that Hitler was anti-Jesus? No- but good enuf for me, and most others.
Are we really surprized that Hitler would lie?
::shrug:: If you want to say that you believe Hitler did not believe in Jesus, that is your right, but I think you should not claim it as a fact without a qualifier. Not to mention, what you actually said is the more sweeping claim that he did not believe in “in g-d Heaven or hell”, which is even less established.
As for Hitler’s possible salvation, people do not need to believe in god, heaven or hell to repent of wrongdoing, and you even give Hitler another chance after death to “really, truely repent.” I am not intending to argue that Hitler is in heaven, but I thought it was considered poor form and somewhat distasteful for a Christian to be so certain of other people’s damnation.
Well, i really think that Davids article backs me up about as much as possible on this- but whatever. It is more than just MHO, at least.
Next- never said I was a “good” Christian- in fact- just the opposite.
Finally “other people”? I can argue- and will get a lot of support- that Adolf was not “human”.
I suppose he was, what, a dog? If he was not human he would not have a soul, right, and so could not be damned anyhow. We should not elevate the human race beyond its lights by claiming that the worst examples are somehow “not human.” Not to mention, denying humanness to those we consider evil opens up the door to casual abuse of them (for how can they claim human rights if they are not human) and I consider that morally wrong. Hell, it was Hitler’s denial of the humanity and rights of the Jews that led to his abuses–shall we do the same? No, Hitler was both human and a person.