I can tell you from personal experience that a dropped M-16A1 can, in fact, discharge a bullet.
They story is obvious hogwash. One or both were probably drinking and horsing around and the weapon was not secured, then stupid shit happened.
There is no way to accurately determine the validity of the story with just the information provided. It is entirely possible depending on the details. This story from the Detroit free press includes a few more details.
They report that he was the host of the party. He was off duty and permitted but not required to carry the gun. He was dancing with his wife when a woman he did not know ‘hugged’ him from behind and got shot. It doesn’t spell this out in the story but presumably investigators asked witnesses including his wife what happened and got a consistent story. The gun was a .40 caliber semi-auto, holstered inside his waistband and under his shirt. It was probably, but not necessarily, positioned something like this.
For all we know when she hugged him she could have put her thumb right inside the trigger guard and pulled the trigger herself. She could have rotated the holster far enough around to point up and back, or if she was much shorter than him a shot from his waist might hit her in the chest with only a a slight backward angle.
The story may or may not prove to be true after the investigation, but it is entirely possible with what information is being given so far.
How can people make comments like this? Are you psychic perhaps?
Many times people have hugged me from behind and reached into my jacket while doing so, either deliberately or accidentally. It’s such a routine occurrence that nobody would bother to even specifically remember it. I cant believe that large numbers of posters have apparently never even seen this occur, much less done it.
So this woman hugs a man from behind or the side. Her hand slips under his jacket and comes into contact with the holster. Without even thinking about it, most people will move their hand to try to work out what the object is.
Bang.
As for the claims that an accidental discharge couldn’t have struck the heart, as others have noted, there are plenty of shoulder holsters that keep the firearm pointing at or near horizontal. Even with a significant downward angle of the barrel, it’s quite possible for the victim be shot in the heart if the male is significantly taller than the female, which is hardly unusual. If you look at the first photograph linked to above, because of the height difference even a holster that projects the barrel downwards at 45o could result in the woman being struck in the heart. And the height difference between that couple isn’t even unusual, much less extreme.
Many of the more popular handguns used by police have no independent safety catch. The only safety is built into the trigger, so that the weapon can only discharge if a finger is inside the trigger guard. These weapons are *designed *to be carried with a round in the chamber.
As far as i can see, claims that the story is “obvious” hogwash are the result of an utter lack of imagination or absence of experience of both experience of both life in general and firearms in particular.
An M-16 (and the aforementioned SKS) have free-floating firing pins that are somewhat prone to this. However, they are rifles. Handguns do not have free-floating firing pins and so for something like this to happen the guy either had the junkiest of junk (unlikely, as his life might have depended on it at some point) or he was carrying it in an unsafe manner.
I still can’t figure out how she came from behind, hugged the guy, and took a shot in the chest. It had to be a shoulder rig, but how does the gun go off in a shoulder holster? Any holster that holds the gun horizontally will have a thumb break, and unless he jammed it into the trigger guard how does the trigger ever come into play?
According to the article linked above it was a Smith and Wesson .40 caliber semi-auto and was holstered inside his waistband. If she was much shorter than him a gun at his waist might be pointed directly at her chest. It might have ricocheted off the ground and hit her on the way back up, the gun might have flipped completely out of his waistband and fired as it fell to the ground. Until the details emerge there is no way to know but the trigger could come into play if she put her thumb in it or it got snagged in the holster. Details like that will probably emerge during the investigation.
It said it hit her lung and heart but I haven’t see mention of entry point. It may have hit lower and deflected upward.
Was it the one that was used for fighting, or for fun?
Always always always have a round chambered. <checking> Yep there it is. And safeties kill thank god I have a Glock.
If it is a Smith .40 like we used to carry I have no idea if they are prone to discharge without pulling the trigger. Never saw that happen. I do know they were pieces of shit that jammed a lot. Also had a ton of light hits from the firing pin and stove pipes. I’m glad we got rid of them.
Actually in a holster, though, or just jammed into the waistband of his pants? If the latter, I could imagine the butt of the gun slipping down his, well, butt until the nose was pointing up. How the trigger gets pulled in that instance is less clear. Maybe if he feels it slipping and reaches around to grab it…
Somebody pulled the trigger. There was either grab-assing involving the gun or some severe negligence in how it was holstered. Despite the wails of people who have fucked up, guns, especially modern handguns, don’t just go off. The polymer framed Smith .40’s use a partially tensioned striker that requires the trigger to be pulled to cock and release it. If it was one of the older 3rd generation metal framed guns that used a hammer and firing pin, the trigger still had to have been pulled to release the hammer even if he had foolishly been carrying it with the hammer cocked. Smith and Wesson, like all the first tier makers, produce handguns with lockwork designed to prevent unintentional firing. Most importantly, the trigger must be depressed for the gun to fire. Even if some bit inside breaks while the gun is holster the striker or firing pin doesn’t reach the primer.
I’ve been carrying a concealed weapon for over 25 years. Daily. Everywhere.
Different guns, different holsters, different carries. Moreso, I’ve known people that entire time who have done the same. I’ve never had an AD. They’ve never had an AD.
I’ve had a gun jump out of a holster once while running after someone, but it didn’t fire. I’ve been hugged, tackled, tickled, shoved, and survived a couple of gun-grab attempts, but my gun never fired unintentionally.
I feel terrible for this woman and her family, but we’re not getting the whole story here. I think we are going to hear a lot more about this, especially with the mother’s comments.
Gun folks know that guns don’t just go off. Somehow, some way, the trigger must be manipulated or pulled. Maybe the holster did it, as shown in the above article, but we need more information.
My current vote is gun mishandling, but who knows?
Also in the news today - another woman who doesn’t believe the cops about her daughter’s gun death…
Woman getting ride from cop grabs his gun and kills herself
Woman getting ride from cop grabs his gun and kills herself | Fox News
What the hell? Yeah, I know your guard is down for a 100 girl, but this cop is on duty, presumably with a level 2 or 3 retention holster. I don’t think I’m spilling company secrets when I tell you that you don’t just pull a cop’s gun from its holster, despite what Hollywood wants you to believe. There are certain manipulations, actions, and more that with training, offers the officer instant access, but denies it to the un-initiated.
Even if she surprised him, it still would take a moment - I think - for her to fiddle the gun loose, and he should have - I think - had time to react and stop her.
It’s certainly a strange situation, and like the OP, one that needs more information for a satisfactory answer.
Detroit Police officers are issued the M&P40. This pistol may be purchased with an optional safety, but I believe the department did not purchase that variant. The M&P is similar to a Glock.
FWIW, Detroit police are REQUIRED to carry their firearm loaded, with a round in the chamber, even off duty.
“2. All semi-automatic pistols carried by members, on or off-duty, shall be carried with a chambered round and a fully loaded magazine. Additional magazines, when carried, shall also be fully loaded.”
https://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/docs/police/DPD%20Civil%20Rights/PENDING_304.1_Firearms.pdf
Thanks, Bear. I was just about to look up their issue weapon.
Seems to make it more clear that someone pulled that trigger.
Maybe.
I also notice that they are required to carry in an approved holster, at their waist, on their firing side. They are expressly forbidden from wearing shoulder holsters.
They are also forbidden from carrying if their BAC is above .02. Hopefully he wasn’t drinking at the party…
I remember seeing a demonstration of an old Japanese pistol from WWII. It could be fired by pushing on the sear pin. I don’t know of any modern pistols that have a defect like that.
Type 94 pistol. Pressure on the exposed trigger bar would fire it.
Well, there’s no point in carrying an unloaded weapon. Unless it’s a knife, I mean.
Generally speaking, Federal agents are required to be armed at pretty much all times (y’know… unless they’re out drinking). They must also carry while on aircraft. It can be VERY inconvenient (especially for the ladies who sometimes wear skimpy clothes in the summer…
Ahhhh… ladies in skimpy clothes… with guns… in the summer…
BRB - give me 5 minutes.
Anyone else envisioning the wife and cop slow-dancing, and the wife seeing the 25 year old coming up to hug her husband from behind?
“Oh no you don’t, missy!”
Kinda doubt it, but sounds like some investigative show’s next plot.