See query. Proximate cause of query: a G-Man busting some serious moves.
Was he carrying (I use the term loosely) a weapon with a safety off? Or one in the chamber and that’s the way it is? How much does the possibility vary with the weapon manufacture? I didn’t look like some freak combination of impacts/events ("the trigger got hooked on a hook’), but are there any that at least in theory could override a safety lock?
As I understand it the gun fell out of his pants during his gymnastics and when he went to quickly pick it up he grabbed it in such a way that it accidentally fired (he touched the trigger inadvertently). My guess is that either the safety was off or he inadvertently disabled it while grabbing for the gun on the floor.
It didn’t fire when it was dropped. It fired when he picked it up.
I would not expect a pistol to fire when it hits the ground, but I am sure somewhere out there is a sloppy design or two where it can happen.
There are some really common service pistols’ like Glocks, that have no safety. They are prevented from firing when dropped by the nature of the firing mechanism itself. In these pistols, the firing pin is struck by a striker which is entirely internal. The striker has to travel away from the bullet first before it rapidly reverses direction and fires the bullet. The trigger must be pulled to make this happen.
Hammer-fired pistols, if the hammer is cocked, can fire when dropped. Most (maybe all) revolvers and all 1911-style semi-autos are hammer-fired. Most law-enforcement folks carry striker-fired semi-autos these days.
It sounds like this bozo accidentally pulled the trigger.
older revolvers with the firing pin as part of the hammer can be “unsafe” when dropped if the hammer is down (un-cocked) with a loaded chamber lined up. if the gun is dropped and the hammer hits the ground first, it can be driven forward causing the pin to strike the primer of the round in the chamber.
modern revolvers employ things like transfer-bar safeties (an intermediate piece between the hammer and firing pin which only raises into position if the trigger is pulled) to make them “drop-safe.” Semi-auto pistols have firing pin interlocks which prevent the firing pin or striker from moving forward all the way unless the trigger is pulled; pulling the trigger releases the interlock.
yep. IIRC almost all unintended discharges of dropped weapons come from the person attempting to grab it out of mid-air or picking it up hastily and inadvertently pulling the trigger. It’s commonly taught that if you drop a gun, just let it fall. it’s too risky to try to catch it.
edited to add:
this isn’t really correct. A “striker” is the firing pin. it’s heavier and is fired by being drawn back by the trigger against a stiff spring, and then released. The striker spring is always under some compression even at rest. Glocks have two safeties; the “safe action” trigger (the little lever which prevents the trigger from moving unless your finger is fully on it) and the striker interlock which prevents the striker from reaching the primer unless the trigger is pulled.
Most modern pistols are equipped with a safety “switch” located close to where your thumb would rest. As reported (gun discharged as he retrieved it) there must have been a round in the chamber and the safety probably in the “unsafe” position. By my way of thinking this would be less than wise. Not so much that a round was chambered, but the safety off.
Older guns tended to use a loose firing pin, which could be driven into the primer and cause the gun to fire if the drop angle was just right. It’s actually really rare for a gun getting dropped from waist high to fire, but it was possible with older designs. Modern pistols and revolvers have some kind of interlock to prevent the firing pin from slamming into the cartridge, and causing a modern gun to fire when dropped from a normal height is basically impossible. To be legal for sale in California a gun has to pass drop tests that slam a handgun into the ground muzzle first, and in general anything that law enforcement will choose as a sidearm will pass that drop test.
Note that in the video the handgun didn’t fire from being dropped, it fired when he picked it up, which means he must have pulled the trigger. Guns are generally designed to fire when you pull the trigger, so the general advice when picking up a gun is… don’t pull the trigger.
No, they don’t. Glocks, to take a very common model, do not have a safety switch like you describe at all, just a trigger safety.
Yeah, the entire issue here, which is clearly seen on the video, is that the moron grabs the gun in such a way that his finger is on the trigger and it fires.
Inexcusably poor gun safety all around on his part.
“Criminal Negligence” would be the proper term as far as I am concerned.
it seems not just “less-than-wise”—It seems pretty damn stupid and dangerous, for this situation. Why keep a round chambered?
We’re in GQ, and I want to keep my comments appropriate to this forum…so please tell me:
What’s the standard operation procedure for an FBI agent carrying arms?
This agent was dancing at a party–He was not on patrol in a dangerous area, he wasn’t on duty as the bodyguard to a famous person, etc,etc.
Why would you need a bullet in the chamber? The safety could (and did) get accidentaly switched off,maybe just by a little friction with his belt.Which leads to this dangerous situation, when other dancers could have been killed.
But you can’t accidently rack the slide and put a bullet in the chamber. Even if the safety does get pushed to “off”, you’re not going to kill an innocent person if there’s no bullet.
Surely common sense would be to leave the chamber empty when you’re at a party.
Are there regulations about this for law enforcement officers?
Exactly. I can’t tell for sure in that video what kind of pistol it is. But if it is a Glock or similar striker-fired pistol, there is no safety lever. These types of pistols have a trigger safety which is supposed to prevent it from firing if dropped. And if you watch the video, it did not fire when it hit the floor. The FBI agent pulled the trigger when he picked it up, a BIG no-no.
The FBI used to carry Sig pistols with hammers and safety levers, but the one in the video looks more like a striker-fired pistol, though it’s hard to tell for sure. As mentioned, most handguns have some sort of mechanism to prevent it from firing if dropped.
I’ll restate what others have said in a different way.
Virtually all modern guns have an internal safety. This prevents the gun from “going off” when dropped or otherwise subjected to mechanical shock. Some guns also have an external safety. This is a manually lever, button, or switch the shooter must manipulate in order for the gun to fire.
Like almost all guns made today, Glocks have an internal safety. Glocks do not have an external safety.
When it comes to handguns, some owners love an external safety, while other owners hate an external safety. My personal preference? I will not buy a handgun with an external safety. IMO there is no logical or rational reason for a handgun to have an external safety.
It is standard practice to have a pistol loaded and ready to use, including having a round in the chamber. It is not unsafe if one follows basic gun safety procedures, which this FBI agent did not do when he grabbed the gun.
You have been mislead by TV shows which always seem to show people racking the slide before using their pistol. This is done for TV, but is not common in reality. If you need a gun this very second, you don’t have time to rack the slide to load a round into the chamber. It’s just not done in real life like that.
It was a Glock, it’s safeties are mostly internal, and it is virtually impossible for one to go off just falling to the ground (and it didn’t in this video). When he grabbed it he pulled the trigger and there is no external safety on the glock, other than you have to pull the trigger - you can just grab one and shoot assuming you already chambered a round. And that’s what happened here. He quickly picked it up and accidentally pulled the trigger.
I’ve been researching buying a pistol. The Glock appeals to me, but I don’t like that it doesn’t have an external safety for this very reason (and others would like it for this precisely this reason - hitting a button in a high stress situation is one more step). It’s gonna be a lot harder for a kid to grab his mom’s gun out of her purse and kill her in Walmart if it has an external safely though.
I understand that the FBI issues Glock pistols so I will discuss only that pistol. We can quibble about the definition of “safety” but Glocks don’t have any safety that the user turns on or off. Glock pistols are designed to go off whenever the trigger is pulled and not to go off if the trigger is not pulled. There is no safety on a Glock that will stop the gun from firing if the trigger is pulled. Most likely, the gun fired because the agent pulled the trigger when he was grabbing it.
Doesn’t it depend on what the user fears more - accidentally pulling the trigger, or having to go through an extra step before using the weapon (presumably in a situation where you need it for self-defense?)
It would make sense for preferences to vary with use - if you are using the pistol for (say) target-shooting, having an external safety makes sense; if you a cop facing life-or-death situations, it doesn’t.
If I understand this correctly, not only did he accidentally pull the trigger, but he already had a round in the chamber.
I’m pretty sure this is how a Glock works. Other safety-less uncocked guns would require considerable trigger pressure to fire, no?
It sounds like this FBI agent was ready to fight al-Qaeda at a moment’s notice, with a round already in the chamber and everything. We should be grateful for his vigilance?
Yeah, both of these are valid questions/positions. IMO (and straying a bit from the intention of the original question), striker-fired pistols make lousy target pistols. The triggers are crappy (IMO), and the sights are rudimentary for true precision target shooting. Now, they are used for defense simulation recreation and shooting sports, as are single-action pistols with hammers and safeties. In general, hammer-fired guns with safety levers have better triggers, and usually better sights.
There are also double-action-only handguns with hammers and no safety levers, as well as striker-fired pistols with safety levers. I suspect you could count up at least six different firing/safety types, and all have their fans for various purposes.
In the end, as the old-timers say, keep your bugger-picker off of the bang switch and it won’t go off.
Again, it is common and expected to have a round in the chamber. It’s standard procedure. If I have a loaded gun - whether for hunting, target shooting or self-defense - there is a round in the chamber. There are exceptions, like unloading the chamber to cross a fence while hunting, but if I’m walking around hunting, there is a round in the chamber.
Some law enforcement agencies, most notoriously NYPD, issue their sidearms with a trigger that takes extra effort to pull. This does create a problem with accuracy and quick reactions, and is no substitute for the basic “keep finger off the trigger until really trying to shoot” safety principle.
As observed, the weapon did not go off from the drop, so the safeties worked. Operator carelessness when grabbing for the gun was the cause of the discharge.
Then again, he sould not have needed to grab for it in the first place.