Then you may as well go through with it and get the full benefit of sinning since you don’t get credit for resisting.
The idea that moral principles like not stealing or killing were somehow originally “secular” and “preexisted” religious thought of any kind is sheer wishful speculation.
We can’t know for certain what the origins of the earliest moral codes in preliterate human societies were, but certainly all the records we have of ancient human moral codes show them firmly embedded in societies where religious beliefs of some kind are well established. You can’t realistically disentangle the two. Postulating some kind of prelapsarian prehistorical past where human beings were naturally, instinctively moral without any of that nasty supernatural religious thinking being involved is just an atheist fairytale.
Mind you, I maintain that atheists are indeed perfectly capable of being moral without believing in any kind of god or any other supernatural being. But that doesn’t mean that what we consider our personal morality isn’t largely based on a historical and cultural societal construct that’s inextricably entwined with the history of religious thought.
Nice try. Still waiting for that precise, consistent and comprehensive definition of “well being”, along with full infallible criteria for objectively resolving individual differences of opinion about whether any given action increases well being or not.
Jesus himself isn’t quoted as saying anything about either. The Greek in 2 Thessalonians that does refer to homosexuals uses terms found in other ancient Greek writings that refers specifically to male prostitutes. From the standard perspective of Christians over the centuries: sin is sin; if it harms you or your neighbor, or prevents you from having a deeper relationship with God, it’s a sin.
See the above. As I’ve mentioned the Presbyterians have been having long discussions about whether this a cultural bias or an inherent sin for 30 years. The jury is still out.
Thank you very much for caring. If I hadn’t had religious experiences myself, I would be an atheist. I dislike woo, mistrust miracles, and am skeptical of spirituality in all its forms. But I have had a brush or two with the divine, so I cannot dismiss the Bible and faith as being a form of truth not covered by science.
Hardly. Both are very obvious examples of self interest. I expect they existed in some form before humans invented language, much less religion.
And religion makes people less moral, not more. It wouldn’t come up with such rules unless they were forced on it from outside, just as the norm even today when it comes or advancements in the morality of religion.
What you “expect” is not in any way historical evidence. It is and remains, as I said, wishful speculation.
You haven’t showed anything. You made a statement and haven’t backed it up, and because you believe it’s true you’re assuming everyone else will agree as soon as they hear it. They won’t.
In addition to this—why “especially sexual sin”?
To be fair, God is a kind of a dishonest prick in the old testament too.
Because “Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained". Prissy, uptight, frigid folks seem to enjoy damning others for having a healthy interest in sex. It seems to be especially vexing when they discover that others aren’t eaten alive with shame or wracked with guilt when they become aroused.
Really? You really think I need to outline an absolute and perfect system of objective morals in order for me to say that it is wrong to kill a homosexual. That’s like saying a physician shouldn’t advise people to stop smoking because he can’t cure every disease or come up with a consisten and comprehensive definition of health.
You should really watch those videos, cause its obvious you haven’t.
Exactly, that’s my point, but yet you go on to maintain that bestiality is an abomination but homosexuality only used to be abomination but as of late maybe isn’t.
So what? Bestiality isn’t mentioned at all, so your reasoning should be that those who practice it are not sinning because they are free of the law, or not, just like the homosexuals are.
From the standard perspective of Christians over the centuries, homosexuality is sin, so I’m not sure what your point is.
Great, and maybe in another 30 years you’ll figure it out. However if you conclude it isn’t sin, you will be contradicting the Bible. Myself, I’ll say it isn’t sin, right here and now, and I don’t care that it contradicts the Bible.
Please share the details of your religious experiences. Exactly what happened?
Everybody who is not Kable, can we quit engaging him / her? He / she is clearly not interested in understanding anyone else’s perspective, or gaining anything other than an all-or-nothing understanding of how religion works.
To Kable: Yes, the Bible is stupid. Christians are stupid. Everybody but you is really stupid, and we’re all (Christians, non-Christians, gays, non-gays) very, very sorry.
Nothing that would make any difference to you, I’m afraid.
Sad to say, you’re probably right.
Please do share. If not me, maybe it will make a difference to someone else, and the Bible says you should share the reasons for the hope that is in your heart to anyone that asks.
1 Peter 3:15.
Yeah? What do you think I missed?
Please do not share in this thread.
If anyone has a need or desire to witness to their beliefs, they are perfectly welcome to open a new thread to do so. This thread is already careening from side to side, about to jump the tracks. We do not need any more sidebars that could hijack the thread.
[ /Moderating ]
I remember attending a church in Orange County many years ago back in 94 called Embassy Christian with Roberts Liardon as the pastor.
The church was a pentecostal church, meaning that they believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I left for San Diego around 1999., but after I left the pastor was caught having a male to male sexual relantionship (see how nice I am being) with the youth pastor.
He confessed to having a relationship in 2001:http://bibleman.fr.yuku.com/topic/145
The church broke up and Pastor Liardon moved to Florida … he still has a ministry mostly in England. Pastor Lairdon was a very strong man.
We are all different, as I look around the room at my own church it is easy to see that we are all different. As I look around on the internet or christian broadcasting, it is easy to see that we are all different.
While attending his church I heard a young lady give a Word of wisdom. She stood with arms outstreached cried out … helps explain the inner workings of the Holy spirit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
“Oh little children how often I have wished for you to come unto me like a hen has her little chicks come and hide under her wings, but nay you run to and froth.”
“One says this and one says that”
“You think that when you die you go to heaven”?
“Nay says the Lord … it is not you that does anything, but it is I”
“It is I that returns to heaven from which I came”
“If you can only believe in me then it is your personality that I take with me”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When you invite the Holy Spirit, Jesus, the Lord out God into your heart something supernatural happens and you never remain the same.
I hope I didn’t break any rules …
So you think this minister is an atheist?