Could it be possible that homosexuals are really athesist

[Kable]

@Prof.Pepperwinkle

It is obvious. Looking at a number of different translations and commentaries, it means exactly what you think.

Great!

However, since it is part of the Old Testament Law, which was fulfilled by Christ’s sacrifice, it is no longer relevant in a Christian church. Or so says one side. The other side says yes, the OT Law was fulfilled, but it’s still abhorrent and gay men shouldn’t be ordained.

Ok, so Christians don’t need to follow any of the OT Law? The Ten Commandments are outdated too? Jesus didn’t really mean it when he said no part of the Law should pass away until heaven and earth pass away?

You said you didn’t think porn stars and sex workers should be ordained as ministers, and you didn’t answer why not? Why not? Why can’t sex workers be part of the Presbyterian “More Light” ministry?

[Prof.Pepperwinkle]

@Kable

Great!
Ok, so Christians don’t need to follow any of the OT Law? The Ten Commandments are outdated too? Jesus didn’t really mean it when he said no part of the Law should pass away until heaven and earth pass away?

You said you didn’t think porn stars and sex workers should be ordained as ministers, and you didn’t answer why not? Why not? Why can’t sex workers be part of the Presbyterian “More Light” ministry?

Right, Christ’s sacrifice was a fulfilling of the Law, so Christians can eat pork, work on the Sabbath, etc. Since he fulfilled it, it hasn’t passed away.

Actually, I did answer about porn stars ministers but I fouled up the quote business, so to repeat:

Church officers and ministers are supposed to be beyond reproach morally. Consequently, no porn stars, no rapists, no child molesters, and, yes, depending on whether or not homosexuality is considered morally reprehensible, no homosexuals.

We are not all of one accord here.

[Kable]

@Dr.Drake

No. I meant what I said.

So you think it’s just fundamentalist Christians that cherry pick?

No, I did not say that. I think a sex worker who was also trained as a counsellor could be good counsellor, though probably not for the population that priests and ministers counsel. I don’t think sex workers are inherently gifted nor deficient in the field of counselling: they’re just like anyone else. But being gay isn’t an occupation, and so the two aren’t precisely comparable.

I don’t see how you can accept homosexuals as clergy/heaven bound as clergy and exclude sex workers and use the Bible as a guide. I don’t see how one being an occupation changes it. I imagine many sex workers do what they do for lack of better opportunities. Maybe you could use scripture to tell me what the difference is between them.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Kable

From what I can tell every English translator comes up with the same meaning.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. They must surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

What do you think it means?

I have no idea what it means. Given that the original language is 2000+ years old, and has been translated through four or more languages, I doubt it means very much at all.

I don’t begrudge the right to read gay Christians the right to read whatever they want into their own holy book. I extend straight Christians the same courtesy. As far as I’m concerned it’s all gibberish.

[Dr.Drake]

@Kable

So you think it’s just fundamentalist Christians that cherry pick?

Maybe we shoud define terms. “Cherry-picking” usually means selecting a portion and excluding the rest. Technically, everyone does, because most people are aware that the Bible is a combination of history, genealogy, law, myth, literature, and other stuff, and generally make an attempt to distinguish these strains. Myth, in particular, can be understood as poetically true (that is, true in spirit) while being literally false. So even though I guess that’s cherry-picking, that’s not what I meant. What I mean is only those few people who think of the Bible as a monolithic Book of Truth, all parts equal, but then refer to some parts while ignoring others.

@Kable

I don’t see how you can accept homosexuals as clergy/heaven bound as clergy and exclude sex workers and use the Bible as a guide. I don’t see how one being an occupation changes it. I imagine many sex workers do what they do for lack of better opportunities. Maybe you could use scripture to tell me what the difference is between them.

Why is this difficult? Anyone who successfully completes the training (and, where appropriate, licencing) to be a counsellor can be a counsellor, regardless of sexual orientation or other occupation. Not all individuals should do all types of counselling. Anorexics and the morbidly obese should probably avoid the field of nutritional and dietary counselling. Chain-smokers and tobacco industry executives should probably not personally counsel in smoking-cessation programs. People with active sexual practices which would horrify their clients should probably not counsel clients in areas that involve sex. People can be gay and celibate, or gay Christians in demoninations who don’t find the idea of teh gay abhorrent.

Christianity is no more and no less illogical than any other large-scale cultural phenomenon. I do think it’s problematic to take ancient social mores and apply them to 2013, but almost no Christians actually do that consistently. Rather, they use an ancient text to justify contemporary mores, and we only notice when those mores are changing (see the discussion of slavery).

[Learjeff]

@Miller

I think, rather, that it illustrates the opposite point: there are surprisingly few unambiguous injunctions against homosexuality in the Bible. Most of them involve situations where there’s some other, overtly horrible thing going on. There’s just Leviticus and Paul, and the translation of Paul’s letters is problematical.

That was my point, however I seem to have missed the one in Romans cited above. My reseach method was to look at Christian sites for their Bible quotes defending the “homosexuality is sinful” proposition.

If I encountered the one Prof P mentioned above, I would have ignored it pretty quickly as being far too ambiguous. But the one in Romans is pretty clear, and it’s NT. Don’t know how I missed that one!

@JRDelirious

(BTW and more seriously: Christians get around the matter of the Levitic rules (shellfish, mixed fabrics, shaving your sideburns, circumcision, etc.) through Chapter 15 of the Book of Acts where the Council of Jerusalem relieved gentile Christians from following most Mosaic laws on ritual and “uncleanliness” except those related to “blood”, idolatry and “fornication”, the latter being interpreted to encompass all the sexual prohibitions. Fundamentalists somehow fail to bring this up when challenged about Levitic prohibitions.)

Thanks – very illuminating, and also a great site for reading a large number of different translations.

I do wonder what it means to abstain “from things strangled, and from blood”.

I think it is reasonable to take “fornication” as used here to encompass all the sexual prohibitions.

@Dr.Drake

I do think it’s problematic to take ancient social mores and apply them to 2013, but almost no Christians actually do that consistently. Rather, they use an ancient text to justify contemporary mores, and we only notice when those mores are changing (see the discussion of slavery).

I think you’re right, and it explains why we so often see the citation for Leviticus against homosexuality but not about burning witches.

Is burning witches covered by the list of exceptions in Acts?

@Prof.Pepperwinkle

…

Thanks for your contributions too, Prof. Very helpful.

[Kable]

@Prof.Pepperwinkle

Right, Christ’s sacrifice was a fulfilling of the Law, so Christians can eat pork, work on the Sabbath, etc. Since he fulfilled it, it hasn’t passed away.

That just sounds like a bunch of Christians deciding they don’t want to live like Jews so they interpreted away most of the Bible.

Church officers and ministers are supposed to be beyond reproach morally. Consequently, no porn stars, no rapists, no child molesters, and, yes, depending on whether or not homosexuality is considered morally reprehensible, no homosexuals.

Biblically speaking, how is homosexuality different from the others? Personally speaking, why do you think porn stars are morally reprehensible?

[Dr.Drake]

@Kable

That just sounds like a bunch of Christians deciding they don’t want to live like Jews so they interpreted away most of the Bible.

Yes, this is pretty much what happened—except (1) many early Christians (all or nearly all, initially) WERE Jews, and (2) it started before the New Testament was written and thus before the Christian Bible came into being. That’s pretty much exactly why “Christians” are no longer a subset of “Jews,” though in Jesus’s lifetime they were.

[Kable]

[quote=“Dr.Drake, post:165, topic:660225”]

What I mean is only those few people who think of the Bible as a monolithic Book of Truth, all parts equal, but then refer to some parts while ignoring others.
[/quote
Seems a lot of liberal Christians like to think it’s ok to be gay, but bad to be a porn start. Cherry picking like that. Or reject the Bible when it talks of hellfire, but endorse it when it talks of eternal paradise.

Anyone who successfully completes the training (and, where appropriate, licencing) to be a counsellor can be a counsellor, regardless of sexual orientation or other occupation.

Great, and how about becoming ordained a minister? Active homosexuals are OK but not porn stars?

Christianity is no more and no less illogical than any other large-scale cultural phenomenon.

No?

Rather, they use an ancient text to justify contemporary mores, and we only notice when those mores are changing (see the discussion of slavery).

So it would probably be good for society if we could put this whole Christianity thing behind us.

[Dr.Drake]

@Kable

Great, and how about becoming ordained a minister? Active homosexuals are OK but not porn stars?

I don’t see how one could balance a career as an active porn star and an active minister. As I am neither, I admit I don’t know what’s involved. I would say the same about a Hollywood star becoming a minister. Being an active homosexual doesn’t really have a time commitment that differs from being an active heterosexual.

[Kable]

@Dr.Drake

I don’t see how one could balance a career as an active porn star and an active minister.

I don’t see why you couldn’t do either part time.

[Prof.Pepperwinkle]

@Kable

That just sounds like a bunch of Christians deciding they don’t want to live like Jews so they interpreted away most of the Bible.

Biblically speaking, how is homosexuality different from the others? Personally speaking, why do you think porn stars are morally reprehensible?

The concept that Gentile Christians are not obligated to follow the Jewish Law is a major theme of Paul’s letters, the book of Acts, and the General Letters. It wasn’t decided overnight and it ended up being the reason Christianity didn’t view itself as being merely a form of Judaism.

As far as the NT Greek goes, the words used for homosexuals can (and have) been translated as referring to male prostitutes, rather than people who’ve adopted that sexuality as a way of life.

Personally speaking, I think prostitutes and porn stars are victims of a system that exploits sex for money, and the system is what I find morally reprehensible. If one looks at the amount of drug abuse and violent crimes that go hand-in-hand with prostitution (even in places where it’s legal), one finds that any glamorizing of the sex industry leads to increased misery for the majority of its participants.

[BrainGlutton]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

That’s not what it clearly says. That’s what the English translation you are most familiar with says assuming the words are given their most common modern interpretations.

But, if the translation he’s using is the KJV, there is no other correct one, after all.

[Kable]

@Prof.Pepperwinkle

The concept that Gentile Christians are not obligated to follow the Jewish Law is a major theme of Paul’s letters, the book of Acts, and the General Letters.

Is Paul another errant human or the mouthpiece for God?

As far as the NT Greek goes, the words used for homosexuals can (and have) been translated as referring to male prostitutes, rather than people who’ve adopted that sexuality as a way of life.

Considering that hellfire is riding on it, do you think it wise to tell people the gay lifestyle might be OK, with God, even though the Bible in some parts called it an abomination punishable by death and in other parts just maybe if you squint might only be referring to male prostitutes?

Personally speaking, I think prostitutes and porn stars are victims of a system that exploits sex for money, and the system is what I find morally reprehensible. If one looks at the amount of drug abuse and violent crimes that go hand-in-hand with prostitution (even in places where it’s legal), one finds that any glamorizing of the sex industry leads to increased misery for the majority of its participants.

Is it the sex that’s morally reprehensible to you or just the drugs and violence? To you have the same a similar problem with actors, rock stars and professional athletes?

[Kable]

@Prof.Pepperwinkle

As far as the NT Greek goes, the words used for homosexuals can (and have) been translated as referring to male prostitutes, rather than people who’ve adopted that sexuality as a way of life.

Also is practicing bestiality as a lifestyle okay now among liberal Christians such as yourself? Since it’s not explicitly mentioned in the NT but just part of the OT law that Jesus you think we are free of?

[rat_avatar]

Wait…Kable are you suggesting that we should

Kill all children who talk back to their parents?

Murder everyone who strays in marriage?

Deport anyone who has sex with their wife and her if it is during her period?

Murder women who are raped by their step fauthers?

Are men who shave and cut their hair allowed to be clergy?

How about the handicapped should are they banned from church?

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Kable

Also is practicing bestiality as a lifestyle okay now among liberal Christians such as yourself? Since it’s not explicitly mentioned in the NT but just part of the OT law that Jesus you think we are free of?

As Jon Stewart said “What is it with you people and the animal fucking?”:

[Kable]

@rat_avatar

Wait…Kable are you suggesting that we should

Kill all children who talk back to their parents?

Murder everyone who strays in marriage?

Deport anyone who has sex with their wife and her if it is during her period?

Murder women who are raped by their step fauthers?

Are men who shave and cut their hair allowed to be clergy?

How about the handicapped should are they banned from church?

Of course not. I already said I wasn’t Christian.

You should ask Prof. Pepperwinkle. If I understand his position correctly, he thinks all the above was the just and moral way to act until about 2000 years ago, and only since then has killing homosexuals and all those other things you listed been wrong.

[Prof.Pepperwinkle]

@Kable

Is Paul another errant human or the mouthpiece for God?

Considering that hellfire is riding on it, do you think it wise to tell people the gay lifestyle might be OK, with God, even though the Bible in some parts called it an abomination punishable by death and in other parts just maybe if you squint might only be referring to male prostitutes?

Is it the sex that’s morally reprehensible to you or just the drugs and violence? To you have the same a similar problem with actors, rock stars and professional athletes?

Paul was both, and admitted to being both. This caused him nothing but trouble.

Salvation is through faith, not acts or deeds. I know many gay Christians who are apparently sincere in their faith (I say apparently, since I cannot know anyone’s heart but my own).

The sex is morally reprehensible as well, but it cannot be taken as a factor separate from the lifestyle and consequences.

[Prof.Pepperwinkle]

@Kable

Also is practicing bestiality as a lifestyle okay now among liberal Christians such as yourself? Since it’s not explicitly mentioned in the NT but just part of the OT law that Jesus you think we are free of?

And we’ve reached reductio ad absurdum.
What of you? You do not have a religious base for morality, so where do you stand on porn stars, prostitution and bestiality? What is your basis for behavior that is acceptable to society or to yourself?