And, even if the Witch-King knew it was Gandalf, he may not have really realized just how much more powerful Gandalf had become since the last time they had faced off.
In that and many other ways, Shelod isn’t a real spider.
Fortunately!
What Shelob is - what Ungoliant was - is some kind of spider creature (webs and such). Melkor somehow changed Elves into Orcs and Saruman seems to have cross-bred them with humans, perhaps. Or a wizard did it.
Bombadil (IMO) is either Tolkien writing something like himself into the LotR when that book was a straight sequel to The Hobbit. Or Eru incarnate.
Yet who or what made Ungoliant? Melkor is under threat till Balrogs come to his aid. Who put the Watcher in the Water in a pool outside the long-unused West gate of Moria? And notably it went after Frodo first. Giant octopus gets ring, vanishes from sight. Now what does the Fellowship do?
ISTR Tolkien wrote that even evil/weird things just sort of happened.
Shelob seems to be, I’d estimate (if not explicitly written) about 3 meters wide while I’d say the Old Forest spiders were about 1 meter wide. Ungoliant, WAG like 20 meters? Dunno if Nasmith, Lee or the other noted artists ever depicted them, yet I think of the Fingolfin at what, 2 meters, battling a Melkor like 40 meters and putting some hurt on him, if not winning.
WK probably didn’t talk much, yet he really did not know who he was facing? Hadn’t Gandalf stood against Black Riders in some kerfuffle on Weathertop?
Yes, but remember the prediction- not by the hand of man would the WK die. So the WK thought he was safe.
Yes, but remember the prediction- not by the hand of man would the WK die. So the WK thought he was safe.
Depending on whether a Maia, cloaked in the form of a man, counted against that prophecy. ![]()
In my headcanon, the Nazgul can’t see things like we do, and Gandalf had changed so much after being reborn he literally looked like a completely different person to them.
I dunno… I’d agree that they don’t see like we do, but I would say that what they do see of Gandalf is what, after his rebirth as the White, everyone now sees.
Bombadil (IMO) is either Tolkien writing something like himself into the LotR when that book was a straight sequel to The Hobbit. Or Eru incarnate.
Personally, I think the cleanest answer to what Bombadil is, is himself. He’s a member of the category of Beings Who Are Tom Bombadil. There’s nobody else in that category, and therefore no sense in giving any other name to his category.
I could have thrown it into my “Elrond the Useless” yet I recall him hearing about Bombadil, and shrugging it off, “Maybe I should see him sometime”.
Bombadil is altogether something else. Frodo was extremely reluctant to hand the Ring to Gandalf, yet he hands it right over to Bombadil. Bombadil spinning the Ring and making it disappear and reappear is not described as a a sleight of hand magician trick.
Indeed, at the Council, it comes up, “Let’s let Bombadil have the Ring” and I reckon by that point Tolkien knows it’s untenable, “Oh he’d just forget about it like some bauble and Sauron gets it” someone like Gandalf says (only Aragorn would know more about him - certainly not Elrond). Highly unlikely, yet The Professor wasn’t revisiting Bombadil-land. Though Treebeard Hrmms and Hooms and is interested in actually visiting the dude.
As to WK vs Gandalf the White - I reckon Wizards always looked like old men, dottering fools if that helps their cause. WK does take pause, and how many people in the last several thousands (eta: no clue what he’s been doing for the Third Age, yet either it’s one of Saruman’s lies yet it is accepted as plausible that Necromancer is WK) of years has he had to threaten and ask, “Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name” or “Old Fool! Do you not know Death when you look upon it! I have a crown and a fiery sword!”
Tom Bombadil predates the Middle-earth stories. He was originally the subject of a poem Tolkien wrote before The Hobbit. I think of him as a crossover cameo; like Superman appearing in an issue of the X-Men. It’s useless to try to figure out how he fits in the world because he just doesn’t. That’s a big reason why he’s frequently left out of various adaptations of LotR.
I want to say, yet am not sure, if he’s in the Russian adaptation. I know he makes the final edit in something, but never was scripted in PJ’s or Bakshi.
At the Ford of Bruinen:
Books: “Glorfindel!”
Bakshi: “Legolas!
PJ: “Arwen!”
At the Ford of Bruinen:
Books: “Glorfindel!”
Bakshi: “Legolas!
PJ: “Arwen!”
I think Jackson did right here, Rather than introduce a character that is never seen again, he brings in a strong powerful woman.
Nevermind
Motive: It’s very much in Sauron’s/WK’s interest to kill Gandalf, the most powerful being of the West. And killing him allows WK to sack the city. Once he’s aware of the Rohirrim, his control of MT is even more valuable, as defending it from Rohan cavalry is much easier than fighting Rohan in the field.
Opportunity: WK is backed by Middle Earth’s largest army and has caught Gandalf alone.
So WK has Motive and Opportunity, but does he have Means? If WK believes he has the means, he should attack Gandalf at once.. The arrival of Rohan only makes defeating Gandalf more urgent. OTOH, if Gandalf is too great a foe, WK should back away and attend to the Rohirrim. Which he does.
IMO, Arwen vs the Nine at the ford was the most badass scene in the entire movie trilogy. I know it was written differently in the books, but damn, that was awesome.
I know it was written differently in the books, but damn, that was awesome.
Arwen wasn’t really given anything to do in the books. She just existed to be Aragorn’s love interest and served no other purpose. Peter Jackson wanted to make her into a real character and I think he did a great job.
I don’t like the fact that Glorfindel didn’t make it into the films as a result, but I really enjoyed her character in the films and didn’t mind the deviation from the original story. I think it was a big improvement.
Arwen wasn’t really given anything to do in the books. She just existed to be Aragorn’s love interest and served no other purpose. Peter Jackson wanted to make her into a real character and I think he did a great job.
I don’t like the fact that Glorfindel didn’t make it into the films as a result, but I really enjoyed her character in the films and didn’t mind the deviation from the original story.
I concur. But Glorfindel didnt really do much in the books- basically one scene. Maybe Jackson could have had him speak at the Council of Elrond.
Invisibility wasn’t a feature of the Great Rings, so much as just a side effect. It’s from the wearer partly slipping into the Other World (and thus actually making you more visible to creatures of that World). But Elves and the other Great People already exist in both Worlds at once, and so it probably wouldn’t have that effect at all on them
Thank you!
I was getting into LOTR books a few years after being introduced to D&D. Somehow between the two of those (or perhaps more explicitely stated in the books?) I got the impression the ring that Smeagul/Gollum/Bilbo/Frodo was carrying around wasn’t so much making the wearer invisible as taking the wearer to the Ethereal plane (the land of spirits and ghosts?) which exists in parallel to the material plane that we humans are familiar with. And while lots of the denizens of Earth and Middle Earth are unable to see things in the Ethereal plane, there are some that exist on both and/or can see both. Undead kings would seem to be likely entities with such an ability. If they’re like 3/4 dead/ethereal* then when The Ring shifted its wearer to the Ethereal plane that wearer would be more visible to the nine kings than when the wearer wasn’t wearing It. This would also explain why the 9 kings had so much trouble tracking Frodo when he merely had it on a chain around his neck. He was less visible to them when not wearing it – like someone dressed in gray walking through a foggy swamp that’s miles away. Can you see him? Are you sure?
–G!
*Of course, if one was completely dead, his comrades would simply go through is pockets and look for loose change,
then return to the hunt for Baggins.
It is a great scene.
In the books it was Elrond who caused the flood that washed the Ringwraiths aside, aided by the Ring of Power he has (Vilya). Glorfindel was the one there who did most of the saving.
I was totally fine with this change in the movie to give Arwen a bigger role. It is a great scene and works well. I bet even Tolkien would have approved.
I don’t like the fact that Glorfindel didn’t make it into the films as a result
He apparently is there, in the background of a couple of scenes.