To me, it seems a natural…Spain likes being a kingdom again, and the stabilizing effects of a maonarchy have been good for the UK. So, since the habsburg family still exists, should we revive this mid-european empire?
Who do you mean by “we” and what business is it of yours one way or the other? Are you simultaneously a citizen of Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Italy, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Austria, Hungary, Germany, Poland, Romania, Moldova, Belarus and Russia? Because all those countries (and some more I’ve probably overlooked) would be directly affected by a recreation of Austria-Hungary and their views seem rather pertinent.
Alliances between most of those countries are already part of the process of European Union membership. Surely if those countries felt a recreation of Austria-Hungary would suit them better they would have suggested it themselves wouldn’t they?
In any case, Spain wasn’t part of Austria-Hungary (there’s a difference between that and the Hapsburg Empire).
Don’t leave out Ukraine. Lviv was once ruled by A.-H.
Interestingly enough-if you wanted to, the man who was the Heir to the Throne at the end of WWI is still alive-Archduke Otto von Hapsburg. Although I think he merely goes by plain Dr. Otto Hapsburg.
Indeed, Guin, if only the Hapsburg monarchy had not been abolished, ol’ Otto would have shattered Louis XIV’s record for the longest reign by a European monarch (72 years). Otto would have been on the throne since his father died in 1922, for a reign, to date, of 81 years!
I’m not sure whether the OP envisions restoring the monarchy in Austria itself, or in Austria and Hungary combined, or in the full reach of the former empire. Good luck with the latter. In Vienna, the Hapsburg days may bring to mind images of Lippizaner stallions prancing to the Light Cavalry Overture, but their rule in many of their subject territories was incredibly brutal.
Excuse me if my previous post seemed a bit sarcastic, but it just seems like a monumentally dumb idea to me. What would be the purpose of recreating the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
Could “we” do it? No – it’s none of our business. Could “they” do it themselves? Sure – all the countries listed above are democracies after a fashion, so they can do whatever they like as long as they can convince enough of their own people to vote for it.
However, there would have to be years of lobbying, argument back and forth and mountains of paperwork to partially dissolve the European Union, the EFTA area and Nato, rewrite all the current and future plans for expanding the European Union and Nato, redraw numerous national frontiers yet again, redraft all the trading and other treaties between the existing (i.e. to be scrapped) countries and the recreated A-H E member countries, arrange for numerous members formally leaving the UN and rejoining again under a new name. Many of the countries in the list above were only partially within the old A-H E, so you’d have to overcome constitutional objections within each of those countries for them to cede territory to reform the Empire.
Take a look at the CIA World Factbook entry for Austria, for example, and look at its international organization participation. All those treaties would have to be rewritten to remove Austria and add the A-H E because not all countries forming the A-H E are currently members of the same organisations under the same set of terms. In any case, do you imagine countries like Croatia and Slovenia would welcome being told to reunite again under an ancient umbrella organisation?
And what would be the benefit? Is there currently any instability in countries like Austria or Hungary that would be removed by the external imposition of some monarch nobody there has heard of? Is it just to give some idle aristocrats with unusual jaw lines something to amuse them in the afternoons? Or what?
ralph 124c does not suggest his reasons for proposing the restoration of the Austro-Hungarian Empire – but look at the things that have happened to its constituent countries since it broke up! The Ukraine and Poland during WWII . . . more recently, the tragic events in Croatia and Bosnia . . . I could understand how some East-Central Europeans might be nostalgic for the narrow-minded, heavy-handed stability of Habsburg rule. (Habsburg? Hapsburg? I’ve seen it spelled both ways – does anybody know how they pronounce it?) Of course it won’t happen. You might as well talk about restoring the empire of Charlemagne.
Does it matter? The European Union looks like it will provide Europe with all the peace and stability it needs. Former Soviet-bloc nations are clamoring to get in, and once things calm down in the former Yugoslavia and wounds have a chance to heal, I expect Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro and Macedonia will also join the EU. (Slovenia has already applied for membership.) Maybe, one day, even Russia will join. And then there will be peace and free trade among these countries for as long as the EU holds together. What dynastic empire could do more?
By the way – I happen to be a great fan of the late sf-and-fantasy writer Avram Davidson. One of his most famous series of connected short stories was about Dr. Engelbert Eszterhazy, a figure like Sherlock Holmes only more intellectual, aristocratic and mystical, living in the late-19th-early-20th century in the “Triune Monarchy of Scythia-Pannonia-Transbalkania.” If you’re interested in the A-H. E., you might want to check out his collection, The Adventures of Dr. Eszterhazy. Or check out the Avram Davidson website, www.avramdavidson.org .
Yeah, remember those Lippizaner stallions prancing through Vienna; they’re from Lipica, Slovenia, not too far North of the current border with Italy. I know this, as I’ve visited the stud farm.
Under Hapsburg rule, everyone was forced to speak German; all education was conducted in German. Not until Slovenia was Napoleon’s Illyrian province was schooling ever conducted in Slovene. I know this from the tour guide on the Plechnik tour in Ljubljana. Plecknik was an architect and, among other things, designed a Napoleon memorial.
Schoolchildren began their day singing a song in praise of the Hapsburg Emperor. This is based on anecdotal evidence from my great-grandmother who was a schoolchild, who sang the song. In German.
I was last in Slovenia in 1988, two years before the breakup of Yugoslavia. There was a lot of separatist talk, and my parents were encouraged to stop me from going…I found that out after I came home.
In my opinion, the original formation of Yugoslavia, which was first a monarchy, was a bad idea from the get-go. Take 6 (or 8 because there were two independent areas within Serbia) bits of land with different ethnic peoples, throw in three religions, and a lot of historical conflict and you’ve got a recipe for trouble. No big surprise that the monarchy didn’t last long. Add a Communist government, Socialist economy, and Capitalist population and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. The one great thing about Tito was that he straddled the fence, so there was more freedom in Y than I understand there was in the Iron Curtain nations. Also, with the Dalmatian coast (Dalmatia is the coastal part of Croatia), they would have lost a lot of tourism $.
If you look at the history of the area, Slovenia and Croatia had been part of the Industrial Revolution, had more education (both more schools and more who atteneded them) and had more natural resources. Other states were part of the Ottoman empire (Turkish), or independent, and placed less value on education, had fewer schools, and fewer natural resources. They also have fewer factories.
As a result, there were a lot more jobs in Slovenia and Croatia. Also, a lot of workers historically went to Austria and Germany as guest workers; once Germany reunited, those workers were sent home, creating unemployment in Yugoslavia (also Turkey). In my opinion that was the biggest factor in the breakup of the country.
Slovenia and Croatia created 85% of the GNP (from a schoolfriend whose father was an economist), but the funding was all sent through Serbia and while S & C both spent money on things like factories and schools, other states would build monuments and not worry about education.
The troubles in the Balkans have a long history, and if you recall, the Hapsburg empire was broken up after Gavril Princip assassinated the archduke and his wife, starting WWI. Putting the empire back together wouldn’t fix anything.
Think of the good things:
-fancy dress uniforms
-dress balls at the Imperial Palacein Vienna
-Strauss waltzes
-ceremony
The new A-H Empire need not be repressive; it could be a kind of “monarchy lite” (such as Denmark and Sweden now enjoy)!
The monarchy in Yugoslavia was the monarchy of Serbia-the Croats and Slovenes definitely had more incommon with the Serbs than they did the Austrians and Hungarians. Of course, it didn’t and still doesn’t stop all the fighting, sadly.
Another interesting tidbit-the last Emperor, Karl I, is up for sainthood. Another of his sons, Archduke Rudolf, was at my aunt’s church not too long ago talking about this.
A representative passage from “Writ in Water, or the Gingerbread Man,” by Avram Davidson, collected in The Adventures of Dr. Eszterhazy, (Philadelphia: Owlswick Press, 1990):
And, from “The Autogondola Invention,” same collection:
As you will see, these stories are really about the A-H E. as it should have been.
So on the down side we’d have an organisational nightmare slightly less difficult to arrange than a mass streak across the Sea of Tranquillity, but on the up side we’d have the occasional upmarket fancy dress party? Hmm. I’m sure they’d appreciate your sentiments, but the thing about a government is that it’s there to govern, not to wear jewellery.
You do know we already have that stuff all over Europe as it is don’t you? I’m sure I could send you some brochures.
How 'bout we forget about whole pan-national monarchy thing and you light some candles, have yourself a nice scented bath and rent a copy of The Slipper and the Rose?
BTW, of the countries that have the best chance of regaining their monarchies, I believe Serbia is supposed to top the list.
Nitpick: I was under the impression that Otto von Habsburg died a few years ago (but would still have the European longevity record) – anyone want to bother Googling to check this out?)
Otto himself is/was a very interesting figure. He appears to have been the smartest Habsburg in history, not excluding historical figures like Joseph II and Philip II. He worked for years towards European unification, and was IIRC quite firm on the idea of nationalities keeping their independent ethnicity but working together for common defense, economy, etc. (A lesson learned from his ancestors’ mistakes!)
Under Franz Josef (Karl was only on the throne for two years during WWI, and had no opportunity to accomplish much), the domination of the Empire by the Austrian Germanic elite and the Hungarian Magyar elite was pretty well accepted. This was the main reason for Bohemia, Slovakia, Galicia, and other areas seeking their freedom from the Dual Monarchy, rather than converting it into a “Great Danubian Republic” or some such, at the end of the war. It’s worth noting that Croatia several times in history chose to remain loyal to the Hungarian throne rather than go completely independent.
The idea of a multi-ethnic state fairly representing the constituent nations is not a bad one, and using a restored Habsburg monarch as head of state would probably leave a bad taste in the mouths of many, but could provide a rallying point – nearly all the Danube nations have a history that includes Habsburg rule.
What Dragonstar says about the history of Slovenia and Croatia is on target, and has a lot to do with the instability of Yugoslavia from 1918 on.
I don’t see “an organizational nightmare” – just the rather strained questions of what powers get centralized and what are left in the hands of the constituent national states that would come together to form the new (federal) country, and how to guarantee the latter against “creeping centralization.” Apart from language questions, it resembles what the independent countries of Rhode Island, New York, Virginia, Georgia and the other nine were faced with in 1787, and they did seem to work out an intelligent solution.
The bottom-line question, however, is whether there is any interest in creation of such a federation, with or without a figurehead Habsburg lending it some historical cachet.
Anybody know what the views of the population in the possible constituents towards the EU might be? That would provide some clue as to whether it would be workable.
Nope, at least according to worldroots.com, he’s still alive and kicking, Polycarp.
Polycarp: What you’ve described there isn’t a recreation of the Austro-Hungarian Empire is it? The organisational nightmare I’ve described would result from an attempt to return to the original borders.
You know that Serbia wasn’t part of Austria-Hungary, for example, even though Franz Josef seemed to have his eye on it with well-documented consequences. Restoration of the Serbian monarchy might have parallels with Spain since that restoration replaced a military dictatorship, but any suggestion of an umbrella organisation to bring the former Yugoslavian countries back together with or without any others along the course of the Danube would surely do more than leave a bad taste in the mouth? Give it a generation or two perhaps – they do say time is a great healer.
Candidates for entry into the EU currently include Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia and Poland. They have already held referenda to join and all votes were passed, only Hungarian voters being less than enthusiastic about the idea.
Excuse me – you didn’t mention Serbia (I mentally conflated your post with some others).
Actually, while Serbia was not a part of the Austrian Empire, there were a great number of Serbs living under Habsburg rule.
Yep. But what “original borders”? The ones from 1914? Or the ones from 1654? Or any other date from the time that the Archdukes of Austria became King of Hungary as well.
I suspect that given the attitude of the various South Slav ethnic groups towards each other, Yugoslavia would have no chance of recreation as a stable country in the reasonable future. As you say – a few generations may change people’s minds. Certainly my grandparents would have not thought that France and Germany would be talking establishing the EU!
That’s quite helpful; thanks!
FWIW, the following countries or parts of countries comprised pre-WWI Austria-Hungary:
[ol][li]Austria[/li][li]Hungary[/li][li]Czech Republic[/li][li]Slovakia[/li][li]Slovenia[/li][li]Bosnia and Herzegovina[/li][li]Croatia[/li][li]The part of Serbia north of the Sava River (AKA the Banat)[/li][li]Trentino/Alto Adige and Venezia Giulia provinces in Italy[/li][li]the part of Romania west of the Carpathians and north of the Transylvanian Alps (AKA Transylvania)[/li][li]the southeast quadrant of Poland (AKA western Galicia)[/li][li]westernmost Ukraine, roughly south of the Bug and west of the 26th meridian east (AKA eastern Galicia and Ruthenia)[/ol][/li]
A union of any two or more of the first seven of these into a federal state would not be unreasonable; obviously trying to peel off pieces of Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Italy, or Serbia to get back to the 1914 borders would be bizarre.
It was mainly the pre-1914 borders I had in mind, but the OP’s mention of Spain would take us all the way back to the C16[sup]th[/sup]. It seems ralph124c was just having some fun with the idea of a Ruritanian theme park, which is an entertaining enough game I suppose.
You’re right that a union of those states that currently have well-defined borders wouldn’t be too difficult to implement, but I can’t think what problems they currently have that would be solved by such a union. It seems to contradict recent independence actions by the Czechs and Slovenes pretty directly. The separation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia from the rest of Yugoslavia was obviously inspired by problems that were more implacable at the time, but which are no longer immediate.
Understandably, they all seem to want to join the EU to take advantage of the larger, wealthier market it represents. But ancient frontier models have recently inspired alternative ambitions for some existing EU states (Italy’s Northern League for instance). Perhaps if things don’t work for the new members within the EU, and I hope they do, they might have other ideas some way down the line?