Could You Believe?

Great Debates
181

As always, Lib, I find your position very interesting. I am not, at this point in my life, interested in giving god another go. However, your statement that one who has love in their heart already knows god is of great interest to me. In fact, it is one of the reasons why I am so comfortable with my atheism now. Since gving up god, love has remained in my heart and has, in fact, grown. Every day I strive to become a better person and as I mature, I am constantly finding new challenges to live up to. Supposedly, when I was a Christian, these motivations and insights were coming from god. I don’t know where they’re coming from now, but they clearly don’t require a belief in god.
From what you’ve said about your idea of God, I think we are not too far off in our beliefs. I would consent that there may be some underlying fabric of the universe from whence one’s feelings of spirituality and mysticism arise, and even that this underlying fabric has some effect on human behavior. But if that were the case, my belief is that this force is not in any way seperate from the natural world, but rather simply an aspect of it that we don’t yet understand. No diety, no magic powers, no omnipotence, etc. (perhaps this is where our beliefs split?) Spiritual experiences may be one method by which humans are able to tap into this force and, having no idea what we are dealing with, we call it god. I don’t think there is any dispute that this has happened throughout human history.
The more I study various religions I am struck more by the great similarities than by any great differences. I think that you have said that you believe all religions are honoring the same god whether they know it or not. I look at the similarities and conclude that god is man’s invention, created to meet his need to understand that which he cannot explain. Same old agrument, I suppose. I just don’t see the need to put a god into the equasion.
And BTW, congrats on getting one right—I’m a “she”.

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

182

Ummm…I think I grasp a piece of what Lib. said (and said, and said, and said) and Gaudere’s problem with the spirit-as-philosophical-ether sort of universe that seems to accompany religious theory.

When I was a teenager, my eighth-grade science teacher used to laugh at me for thinking that there might ever be such a thing as a raygun. “We’ve catalogued the entire electromagnetic spectrum, and nowhere in it is anything that could do the sort of thing these space-opera rayguns do.”

Can you say “laser”?

Many of you know the Lord Kelvin story. Kelvin was a leading physicist of the late 19th Century, by no means a kook; the absolute temperature scale is named for him, for example. And he was as firmly committed to a young earth, only a few thousand years old, as the most vehement Creationist today. His reason: there was no way to keep the core/mantle of the Earth molten, as it obviously was, for the time spans the geologists were suggesting. Nor could the sun keep shining for that length of time. Physics, said he, rules out your (geologists’) speculative timescale.

Then radioactivity was discovered. And all bets were off.

Whatever the truth underlying “the supernatural” actually is, other than myth and wish-fulfillment, it will make sense and fit into a physical framework that David B. will be as comfortable with then as he is with muons and protein macromolecules today.

We live in a universe that makes sense. Some people see this as deterministic, others as anthropic, others as coincidental, and others as the product of design. I’m in the latter group, because I feel I have (personal, subjective) evidence of the reality of God. We’ve been through this at length elsewhere, and I don’t want to be flamed by slythe for vaunting it again. I bring it up here because my contention is that when all is said and done, the experiences of the great mystics will make as much physical sense as, say, what happened to OpalCat can be explained in terms of endocrinology and neurology.

183

Lucky:

I got one right! My, er, lucky day! [groan…]

I guess that’s why I hate religion. What single thing has been more of an enemy to God? I don’t know whether He (the Love Everlasting) is natural, but I don’t think He is. If He were, He would be measurable, and there would be no moral context for us to decide whether to love Him in return. Maybe I just see the whole thing bassackwards, and have since I first read “Before Abraham was, I am.” But this was how I always read Jesus: a simple message of Everlasting Love. I don’t know, maybe it was an advantage to me that I didn’t ask any “Christians” anything, but just read the Greek for myself.

Gaudere:

If I understand your question, I guess my answer would have to be that there is no difference. If it is love, then it’s all one. But it came from Him, or you could even say, it is Him. And the experience of it is why we’re here. That’s how I see it, anyway.

184

I am certainly not cleaning up that mess. I will leave it as a lesson to you all. (Besides, enough people have already responded to the multi-post that if I delete all the posts, their comments won’t make sense.)

185

Well, I’ve learned nine.

186

Well, I’ve learned mine.

187

I think you’re being a little hard on religion, here, Lib. We all seek our own path, but the advice of others can be useful. Religion can give people a sense of “belonging” and the example and pressure of others in the group can encourage moral behavior. Rituals, symbols and myths are vital to man (though the myths need not even be believed to be truth in the ordinary sense). Organized religion has done many evil things, but it was done good and important things, too. I admit I have a certain bias against it because it seems rarely content to remain in its proper bailiwick and instead ventures out to harass those who want nothing to do with it; also, I think it encourages believing what everyone else believes. But I would hardly call it the worst enemy of God/love.

188

I am not completely sure what to post. I do not completely agree with Poly or Lib, though since a lot of this is personal belief and faith, I have no idea who is right.

Here in general are the steps that I believe are necessary for salvation.

  1. You must believe that God does exist.
  2. You must also believe that God sent his only son to the Earth to teach man and ultimately die on a cross and was buried and arose to be the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of man.
  3. You must decide to accept Jesus as the Lord of your life. He must be your ultimate Master.
  4. You must confess this with your mouth.

If you do these things you will be saved. It is my belief that once you have received Christ, you cannot lose him. So Lucky if you received Christ earlier in your life, he is still there.

I do not look at faith as something God just gives to you, it has to be developed. Let’s say that you meet someone new. Now if they ask you to trust your life to them, you likely will not (maybe certain types of people like doctors or police officers, but not even them completely). You may give them a bit of trust and if they do not let you down, you give them more. Maybe eventually you would trust your life to them.

You give God a small amount of faith comensurate with your knowledge of him, as he proves himself to you you give him more.

Many seek to find God but do not know what to do when they find him. Or they do not even know when they find him. Just like any relationship it must be cultivated. You must spend time with him.

How many of us never talked to our spouse before we got married? Likely none. What if you always ask things of your spouse but never give in return? It will not be a good relationship.

You should show God your adoration just as you do your spouse. Tell him you love him, tell him how important he is to you.

You should also just talk to God. Ask him how his day went :wink: (doesn’t your spouse love that). Too many people treat God like he is a genie that only exists to grant wishes. He should be a friend that you enjoy spending time with.

If you believed in God, why would you believe? What would be the purpose of God? I guess that most would say he has no purpose and that is why they do not believe. But think of why you would if you did.

I think few would classify Poly, Lib, Tomndebb, SoxFan (remember him, haven’t seen him around in a while), CK, CMKeller, and others who names currently escape me, as being dumb or uneducated or gullible. So why do these folks believe? If I started trying to convince you of the Marshmellow God (sorry Adam) you would likely call into question my intellect as well you should, but while you question these folks about their beliefs, you do not seem to question their intelligence. Why?

Jeffery

189

We’re just polite, Jeffery. :slight_smile: If a significant proportion of people believed in an intangible Marshmallow God, I would question them nicely about their beliefs too. For that matter, if I met one person who seriously and solemnly believed in an undisprovable Marshmallow God I wouldn’t automatically assume s/he was stupid (or crazy) either. I assure you, my manner would not come from some secret belief in the Marshmallow God.

190

I wouldn’t think it would be because of some small secret belief in any God. I am just wondering what you guys think of us and our beliefs.

Jeffery

191

People have lots of different worldviews. Some of them include a supernatural being. If the supernatural being does not have “solid” evidence yet are not disprovable, belief in him/her is a matter of faith. I don’t really find such a belief crazy or stupid; we all have unprovable beliefs (that we exist, f’rinstance), although I find this one more of a stretch than most. I tend to be pragmatic and would rather worry about what effect that belief will have on the person. If the belief appears to do no harm or even to do good, I have no real problem with it. I do not need to believe anything in particular about a person based on their belief in a supernatural being, although the believers often seem to feel the need to believe that I am “denying” God, that someday I will “find” God, that I have no good reason to be moral, that I’m going to burn forever when I die unless I say the proper words to the proper God, that I must hate God, that I must hate theists, etc.

192

Goodness gracious. I’d love to sort through this thing, but it’s too time consuming. There’s quite an advantage to reading a thread as it develops, instead of after it’s grown by forty detailed posts. Anyway…

[semi-rant]All of this discussion has made me feel somewhat sorry for the atheists. I do not agree with Poly’s doctrine on death, nor Jeffery’s (read, Baptist) doctrine on “once saved, always saved.” And Lib…well, to be frank, I don’t have a clue what Lib believes in.

Yet we all claim to be Christians.

For a person seeking God, this must be confusing, and irritating. And for an atheist, I imagine it only strengthens their case. “Look, they can’t even agree on doctrine.” “Why should we believe.”[/semi-rant

This is one of the reasons I think denominations can be harmful to God’s kingdom. In fact, I cannot think of one positive thing about them.

Oh, and Jeffery, I think it’s cool that you use Marshmallow God. Maybe I’ve coined a word, like Poly’s Divine Weasal.

I’m done rambling. Carry on.

Adam

“Life is hard…but God is good”

193

Jeffery,
You said

Bear in mind that everyone does not share this experience, no matter how much you want to belive that your god always comes through in this manner.

Also,

And many people seek god and do not come out of that experience believing in *your[i/] god.

I have already discussed these issues with a couple of other posters, so I’m saying it here just to give you food for thought. Of course, I’m always interested in new opinions, so should you want to discuss it, I’m open.

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

194

I understand you point Lucky. I know that there are many different experiences in life and people have very differing beliefs.

I truly believe in God and that he does want everyone to love him and he does not just select some people. All I can say in your case and really in the others is I do not really know why I have had the experiences that I have. These experiences, to me, point to a loving and involved God. Why they either do not happen for you or others, or why we do not view them in the same way, I do not know. All I can really do is speculate and apparently that has not done too well for me in this thread.

If something comes to me I will post it later.

Jeffery

195

Adam, just curious, what scriptures do you use to believe that it is not “Once saved, always saved”?

Jeffery

196

Adam:

I believe in this:

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” — John 17:24

197

Adam, I think you know mine by heart: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Not “…and be baptized according to formula X.” Not “…and recite the Sinner’s Prayer meaningfully.” Not “…and receive the second baptism of the Holy Spirit” or however you want to phrase it. Not “…within the time constraints of his lifetime.” Not “…but if not, I’ll burn them in hell forever – Bwahahahaha.” Not with *any additional clauses, weasel-wordings, etc. Pure, unconditional love. And on that Lib. and I agree wholeheartedly.

“In all things God works together for good with them who love Him, who are the called according to his purpose.” (Romans 8:28)

Bottom line.

198

Jeffery:

I dunno, Jeffery, didn’t Phil say that he was a former evangelical?

Well, just as I thought, the experiment (for want of a better word) was interesting. But it seems like there was quite a bit of, “You didn’t try hard enough to reach God.” And I think that when you say that, you are failing to understand that the God that you want someone to know may not exist.

There’s a great deal of discussion about what God means, and what God has done, or might do, in a given life. However, just as Gaudere and Lucky pointed out, not everyone is going to believe in God at all. So to tell an atheist that God is trying, but the atheist is unwilling to accept the charges, or that the time for salvation is coming, and the atheist will see all, is pretty damned conceited. Because the possibility exists that the God you worship is, indeed, a creation of mankind.

Now, if you want to believe, and you’re not harming anyone else with your belief, and your belief makes you a better person, then I say, “More power to you.” I would not call your intelligence into question. Nor would I consider you “gullible”. My take on it is that we all require certain things to get through each day. You may require faith in God, a friend may require Zarathustra, and I require logic and brown liquor. (Not necessarily in that order, YMMV)

Waste
Flick Lives!

199

Actually, I’d like to know about the question of being always saved. Are you or aren’t you? Help me out here, people.

200

GL, I would never call Phil’s or anyone else experiences into question. So I will not make a definite statement, but I will say that If Phil did receive Christ into his heart, then Christ still abides there, even if Phil does not believe in Christ.

As to the other statements, I am aware that some people do not believe in any God and many do not believe in the same God I do. I will also concede that eventhough I do not believe this to be the case, that there is a possibility that God does not exist. I do my best not to harm people and try not to make them feel uncomfortable about their life choices.

If someone is looking for God for insurance, that is they do not believe there is a God, but just in case they are wrong it does not hurt to have gone to church a few times, then there is no point in doing the church thing. You accept Christ as the Lord of your life and he becomes your savior. I believe Christ and my faith in him does make a positive difference in my life. I am willing to share with those who want to know more about my experience and my relationship. If they come to know him fine, but I also realize that this is a message board and since y’all don’t really know me, you cannot know if I am being honest and sincere or if I am just spouting stuff that I do not believe.

I tried to explain why Glitch’s experiment did not work and I do not believe it was because he did not try enough, but because he just does not believe.

Let us take a look an another analogy. Let us say that you are a Republican. You believe in their ways through and through. Now someone challenges you to become a Democrat. They give you some information on the ideas and the principles of the Democratic party and they ask you to state that “Today I will believe in the Ways of the Democratic party.” Now, tomorrow, you decide that you still do not believe that being Democrat is the way to go. Were you a Democrat even for that one day? No, you said you believed and you may have tried to believe for the day, but if you were not one day, said you were the next and were not again the next, then I propose you never were.

Glitch did nothing wrong. Glitch did as he promised. But I believe it takes a certain amount of belief before one can receive Christ. I think for Glitch it will take something that would be close to what David B. would classify as a supernatural miracle (not that the classification of the birth of his child was not a miracle, but you know what I mean). I do not know what that would be, but I think Glitch would have to have something to spark belief.

Jeffery