Could You Believe?

Great Debates
201

Jeffery: I talked about this before, and gave many Scriptures to back it up. The Bible uses the term fall way, or fallen away a few times, to describe our relationship with God. Read Galatians 5:4; Hebrews chapter 2, and 6; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-24;

Also read Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus speaks to the churches, and constantly rewards those who “overcome.” Overcoming means continual action. Constant abiding in God. Never falling away.

Poly: You say:

I would like you to provide Scripture that says you can be saved after death. Are you telling me that you believe one can accept Jesus after they are dead?

“Life is hard…but God is good”

202

Jeffery & Others:

There is some measure of truth in what you say about the Glitch of today. But I have not always been this way. I am an atheist, heathen, heretic because of my past which includes a specific event (my atheistic conversion if you will) in which I did believe and it nearly cost me my life.

I have been contemplating whether I wanted to post the story of that event. It is rather personal, and although I can remember it in crystal clarity (like I am sure many remember their theistic conversion experience) dredging up the memory hurts. It hurts alot.

The fact is also, that whenever I have told this story, I have come under attack for it. Things like, you weren’t sincere (to which I will usually pop the person in the nose), you didn’t believe (to which I will usually pop the person in the nose), God knew you could handle it (to which I will usually pop the person in the nose), God didn’t abandon you, you just weren’t fill_in_the_blank to hear him (you know), etc. I like this board, and I don’t see how I could post it and not have it come under that kind of attack, to which I would feel a lot of resentment towards that person. That seems to violate the creation principle in my mind, so perhaps it is best to just leave it at a high level.

I tried to commit suicide. I begged God for help. God abandoned me. I never felt so alone ever. This means to me that the only possible God is the Divine Weasal or the Divine Me, or no god at all I reject the Divine Weasal, and the Divine Me is irrelevent. I was left with only one choice. No god at all. And thankfully I realized that before I shoved the sword all the way into my chest. As it was, I got a nice cut from it. The physical scar healed, but I won’t walk down that road of death again. I will make the best attempts I can, but don’t ask me to believe fully. I never will. Not until I get the feeling of love and faith that I needed then. I don’t want a miracle. I want that contact. God can contact me anytime He wants. He doesn’t. I don’t know why, but until He does all logic and reasoning point to no god at all.

And so, if I will never fully believe more than I do now. My cause is hopeless. When God abandoned me then, He set my fate.

I could hate God for that. I don’t. I could hate Christians for driving me to that state. I don’t. I think I would be absolutely justified in not even trying. But even there I am true to my own heart, which is the pursuit of truth and no delusion. I will continue to make attempts. If you folks are right, I will be interested to see what is in my “Book of Life”.

203

If I could be wrong about anything in the whole wide world, I wish I could be wrong about “You cannot escape yourself.” I wish I could convince my heart to just accept the certitude of delusion. I wish I could ignore the nagging doubts about things I do not know for certain. Sometimes, I wish I could quiet my mind completely, and just stop thinking. Sometimes, I really wish I could just forget.

I mentioned spiritual beatings. I hope that everyone understands what I mean by that. To makes the attempts I do hurts. I hurts my spirit. I think perhaps this too may explain somewhat why I would find the existence of God painful. It would leave a terrible question, that I don’t want to face. Maybe it has nothing to do with the human struggle. Perhaps that is the delusion I cloak myself in to keep from facing that question. But it is on my mind now. Now if only I could forget it, but I can’t. You cannot escape yourself. If only I were wrong.

204

It was brave of you to post that, Glitch. I hope you will not get attacked for it. It is also brave of you to face the pain the attempts cause you. It is only through confronting the things that upset us that we can find true peace and confidence. I think if you continue to do so you will overcome the things that hurt your spirit, and you will find answers that satisfy you.

A lot of atheists who were once theists describe reaching out to God and finding “nobody home”. The usual theist response to this is something about the “footsteps” story or an implication that the person wasn’t sincere enough. These responses seem highly insulting to those who were in pain and could find no help from a God they needed.

It seems like most atheists are willing to seek God. Yet I do not see theists questioning their belief as seriously as atheists question their lack of belief. We’ve had quite a few atheist-asks-God-for-a-sign things here on this board, but not a comparable theist-asks-God-for-a-sign. There’s always “thou shalt not test the Lord thy God”, I suppose, and also theists have faith that God exists, and few atheists have faith that God does not exist. Still, if a theist did an “experiment” and did not receive a sign (making a full attempt to weed out their personal emotions from “God”) would they begin to doubt? Or is it just one of the things about faith, that you do not need to doubt, even when faced with testimony from honest atheists and the lack of a sign when requested?

205

Glitch thank you for posting what you have. I would never say any of the things you have had said to you and it is not due to fear of a pop in the nose, since I am on the other side of the keyboard from you.

My wife when she was in college contemplated suicide. I am not sure how close she came as it too is a painful time for her. All I know is she believes that God sent her some Christian friends that helped her to see that life was indeed worth living (I am not sure if they even knew that she had contemplated suicide and how she believes they saved her life.)

Just out of curiousity, what were you looking for God to do? If anyone criticizes you I will help you give them a cyber-punch in the nose.

Gaudere, I have questioned my faith and questioned the existence of God. These messages cause me to evaluate my beliefs and see what I believe in comparison to what others have stated. The bible says seek out your salvation with fear and trembling, but not do not try to find out if God exists or not.

I do not know all the answers but I am willing to try to figure it out.

Just out of curiousity what would you propose as an opposite test for a believer to try to prove or disprove the existence of God, in that believers mind at least?

Jeffery

206

I am going to post the full story. I think that will answer any questions about it.

Before, I do in case anybody reads it and wasn’t going to comment. I take back that I would resent a person who said any of the things mentioned. Times have changed for me. Every aspecy of life is always open to examination and analysis. So, feel free to comment as you wish.

About popping somebody in the nose. I did mean that as a kind of joke. I don’t hit people for things they say, no matter how hurtful. I joke alot using events from my past that close friends know and only afterwards to I realize that it is obscure to those who don’t know me well.

In this case, two days after my suicide attempt one of the Christians in the prayer group came to me and said “I am shocked you tried to kill yourself. Don’t you know that suicide is a mortal sin?”. I literally did pop him in the nose and his nose broke. I feel very badly about it and regret the spirit in which that punch was thrown.

Anyway, long post coming up. If you want to comment on this event you may want to wait until it is there.

207

Glitch,

This is my first post on this entire thread. Thank you for sharing something so personal. It took me many years to get to the point where I could share my similar situation. You probably read this on the “(A)theology” thread a while back.

I was 18 and had many problems surrounding my life. I considered myself a Christian, and still believe that I was saved several years before. But my faith never went anywhere. I prayed first for my problems to go away, then for God to just take me out of this world and then when none of that happened, I decided to take things into my own hands. I had a tree picked out to crash my car into when the day came that I could see not one positive in my life. That night came - I had every intention on doing it. Something stopped me despite my determination. I still at that time didn’t take it as a sign from God. Instead I felt like even more of a failure because I couldn’t even do that right. So I eeked out an existence for some time more until another freak accident where I should have probably been killed and my car totalled, I was uninjured and my car still driveable.

A friend of mine tried to convince me that God was in control, that I needed to see that. It took a long time for that to happen. I still didn’t feel like He was there for me. I asked for signs and didn’t see them infront of my face. I really don’t know at what point I finally did realize that He indeed was there, and was there for me, but it wasn’t till after I changed my heart and started seeking Him out for what He wanted from me. I realized I had it all wrong - I wanted everything from Him, but didn’t realize what He needed from me.

I’m not saying your situation was exactly the same as mine. But I do know the feeling of God not being there for me when I felt I absolutely needed him. I also know, now, that in my case He wasn’t getting from me what He needed from me to show me the way. Again, I don’t know if your situation was the same, but I do know that there is a God and I know He was there for me even though I didn’t see it at the time.

Gaudere,

In response to your question about theists not questioning their faith as seriously as athiests questioning the existance of God… I can only answer from my perspective as a Christian who does now have a personal relationship with God. Once I truly entered into that relationship and He began working in my life, it was unmistakeable that He was real. Sure, I doubted my faith at times, and in the lowest times, may have even questioned His existance or atleast His existance in my life. But once entering into that true relationship with Him, even if I do have a fleeting doubt, I can squash that doubt with my faith and knoledge that He is infact working in me, through me and around me.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

208

I’m sorry Glitch, I should have went back and checked. You posted your “more coming soon” while I was trying to formulate my reply. I’ll wait to see what else you post to see if I need to restate what I said any differently :slight_smile:

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

209

I stand right with Jeffery and Gaudere as regards taking offense at anyone presuming to criticize Glitch on his posts.

And I do have a very strong problem with anyone presuming to judge. As for me, that creature who presumed to lecture you on “suicide being a mortal sin” deserved precisely what he got (and I normally abhor violence).

IMHO, if a Christian is one who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, then no Christian would have said that. He would have no right to. A person who arrogated to himself the right to judge in the name of Christ could say it, but would not be acting as a Christian in doing it.

I have a real problem with the fact that God appears not to deal with the pain of many people who call to him in distress. I don’t have an answer. And you are entirely right that all the facile answers that Christians mouth are not acceptable, to make an understatement.

I do have faith in a loving God who presumably has his reasons for doing what he has done (and leaving undone what he has left undone, as in this case). I do have some stringent questions on why, which I have faith will be answered someday.

My only speculation is that suffering is a part of the human condition, and in having been made human, God shares in and joins with us in our pain. Glitch’s story evokes to me Jesus on the cross: “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?” And from that pain, Glitch has evolved his personal life philosophy of OSU. To me, that is not worth the price it cost Glitch. YMMV.

Adam, I am not going to play proof-text with you (nor do I really think you want me to). I’d observe the passage about “baptism for the dead” that always gives non-Mormons the willies, but certainly is in Scripture. My only suggestion is that if God is omnipotent, He is stronger than death (cf. God~Love, and the “Love is stronger than death” line from the Song of Songs). He proved this at the Resurrection. How is He going to allow a beloved child to slip from Him because his/her only experience of Him is from narrow hatemongers claiming His name? That’s not proof; it’s just my understanding of how God works. And again, YMMV.

I would love to see the difference in what happened to Glitch and what happened to Mike, not in the details but in the big picture, that caused an apparent act of God in the one case and not in the other.

At this point, I don’t have answers, just beliefs, speculations, and questions.

210

About 18 years ago, I was agnostic. I felt that there really wasn’t any solid way to know in either direction. Plenty of pros and cons on both sides.

So, a Christian friend invites me to try the Christian experience (we always called it her “Christian Challenge”, but we always laughed at calling it that so don’t take it the wrong way). She asks me to read and study the Bible, pray to God, and attend church. So, I agreed. It certainly seemed fair to give Christianity a chance based on knowledge rather than ignorance.

So, her father, a minister, gave me a Bible. I read it and studied it. I prayed to God. I attended church. The first church I went to was rather boring. Dried up passionless old men. So, I went to another church and then another. Ultimately, I attended six different churches and ended up going to two of them on a regular basis (Baptist and Anglican).

Things were going okay. It was a fascinating time, and I really learnt a lot about Christians and Christianity. Although still agnostic, I found myself thinking that the experience was being decidedly positive, and speaking with various minsters were showing me logical counters to my objections.

So, six months later, I joined the local prayer group. Again, a very positive experience. I don’t recall ever feeling a real connection with God, but I do recall really feeling like I was making progress. That I was on the road to personal salvation.

At about 10 months, I would quite have called myself a theist, but probably as close as I ever came. I believed that there was a god, I just wasn’t entirely sure of his nature, or why we didn’t seem as close as I had expected or told we would. Still I was determined to fight on!

My martial arts instructor was talking to me about this time and told me that I seemed to not be trying very hard in class. Having recently passed my black belt test, he was very disappointed, and thought maybe I felt I had reached the end of the journey, when I was really just at the start. He said, a lot of my inner fire was gone, and I was too complacent, too stagnant.

With some soul searching, I realized he was right. I had really lost me intense sense of direction. As much as I believed in Christianity I felt that I had let me take the easy way out and forget about becoming stronger. I am not saying that this is true of all Christians, it was just the way it affected me. So, I went back and studied the Bushido again, and try to reconcile both together.

One of the other boys in the prayer group found out I was reading the bushido and other non-Christian texts (oriental philosophy and such). He went ballistic towards me. He said I was defiling the gift God has given me, by seeking any kind of guidance elsewhere. He told the rest of the group about this. He told the minister I was a satanist who had boasted I was trying to infiltrate the group to bring it down. The minister kicked me out. The head minister of the church then talked to me. I told him everything. He said I was welcome to continue to come to the church, but that he agreed I shouldn’t be allowed in the prayer group. He also disapproved of reading “Buddhist” texts (none of the books were buddhist at all). He told me I had to stop reading those books or they would corrupt my soul, and that it would be the same as turning away from God.

I didn’t know what to do. It was very depressing. I felt really adrift and cut off from everybody. I left karate (the only time I stopped training in the past 22 years!). My classes really started to suffer. I still went to church for awhile, but three of the boys there were making my life hell in school, and I lost the spirit to continue in the face of their adversity. The mocked and ridiculed me and my way of life. The life I had choosen years before to live the truth, and with strength of heart.

I told my friend who had issued the invitation in the first place “I am ending this challenge now.” (we had always phrased it as a “challenge”). She replied “I know somebody you will find God, I just know now it won’t be through me.”.

Then I got a note from one of the boys. “We asked God about you at the prayer group, He told us that He doesn’t want anything to do with you. You were told the truth, and you turned from Him. You are a disgrace and worthless in His eyes.” Now, I know this doesn’t match up with Christian philosophy, but at that time, it caused more doubt and pain. I believed in God. I believed He would always love me, even if I hadn’t fully given myself to Him yet. But I had been so close. Why was He rejecting me? Why would God tell that to the prayer group if it weren’t true? Had I done something truly terrible and not realized it? My life was one based on honor. That honor was forever stained. Therefore, there is no life.

I went home in tears and disgrace. I had decided I had to die. This wasn’t a test for God. I wasn’t speaking to Him, because I thought He wasn’t going to answer anyway. To be honest, I remember being afraid that He might in fact answer me this time, and confirm what I had been told.

I took my wakizashi (a gift from my shihan on my black belt test). Went to my room, and put it to my chest.

Nobody wants to die, so I amongst the tears and pain I thought, “Please God tell me why I should live?”. Nothing. “Please God tell why I should live?” Nothing. “Please God tell me that you have a plan for me?” Nothing. “Please God tell me that you don’t want me to die?” Nothing. “Please God tell me that you love me?” Nothing. “Please God tell me what I have done? Tell me if I can redeem myself?” Nothing. “Please God forgive me for whatever I have done. I regret it with all my heart. Please forgive me.” Nothing. “Please God do not abandon me now. I will die if you leave me. I do not want to die, but I cannot live without you. Not now. I need to know that you love me. I need you to accept me into your heart.” Nothing.

I sat in stunned silence. I really thought He would fill me His spirit. So, I closed my eyes, took a break, and leaned slowly forward onto the blade. As it cut into me, I thought “No, I don’t want to die.” … a moment “Why should I die for shaming God who won’t love me?”. I let go of the sword. I was bleeding pretty bad, so I called an ambulance and they took me to the hospital. The doctor said the wound was “nasty” but not very critical. He said that it had cut to just below the skin. Another few centimeters and that would have been it.

211

My apologies for the delay in the post. I broke down somewhat near the end and couldn’t continue to type.

212

Glitch,

I’m am absolutely torn by your story. It is very sad, very sad.

Frank Peretti recently has a book out titled ‘The Visitation’. For some reason that book came to mind, as I read your story. I think it is well written, and thought provoking, for a work of fiction.

Peretti is a Christian author but it isn’t about the rapture or anything like that. More about the journey of one man in his walk with Christ.

Peace.

† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

213

A few typos near the end.

“I really thought He would fill me His spirit.”

should be “fill me with His spirit.”

“took a break”

should be “took a breath”.

214

But I think that what a lot of ex-Christians here have been saying is that they did do precisely this, and they did not receive an answer. In the end, it seems to me that the situation is this:

  1. You believe that he who seeks shall find.

  2. People who claim to have sought God didn’t find him.

  3. God can’t be at fault.

ergo,

The seeker screwed up somehow.

I hope you don’t take this as me putting words into your mouth, but what I’m trying to stress here is that you are carefully stating that you don’t doubt the sincerity of any of the ex-Christians here, but you still find ways to lay blame at their shoes- for example, by saying that God did show himself to them, but they weren’t ready, didn’t know what to look for, didn’t get what they were expecting, etc. I think that this is, indeed, a bit of a cop-out. If you are trying to make an appointment with a psychiatrist and even when they meet you on the street, they pretend that you don’t exist, how is that helping you? How do you feel when months later they say “ah, now you’re ready for psychotherapy, but you weren’t ready before”? I think you’d say Jeez, couldn’t you have just told me that, rather than acting like I didn’t exist?

Earlier you asked me what kind of sign I was expecting from God. I was, first and foremost, expecting more than nothing. And secondly, I didn’t really put any sort of constraints on what I was looking for- I knew that God knew best how to reach me. But communication is a two-way street, and if God wanted his message to get through, he knows what sort of communication I will accept from him even better than I do- and yet your nonexistent God chose not to communicate with me in any way I could understand. What does it mean to say “seek, and you shall find” if you do your part, and you just can’t find? You tell us that we are expected to give God an amount of faith commensurate with our knowledge, and he will reveal himself to us a little bit, and we will give him more faith, etc. That’s a very neat and tidy way to view the world, but the reality is that I (and a lot of other people) gave God an amount of faith that was well in excess of my knowledge, and nothing happened.

-Ben

215

Glitch:
I have not posted in this thread before, and I will not intrude for long, now. I just wanted to say that I am glad you recovered your spirit.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

216

Oh, my God! Murderers! Vile and putrid bitter enemies of God! Lecherous and trecherous snakes! The universe cannot hold the weight of justice that will be brought to bear upon your cowardly shoulders.

Has He loved you and shown Himself to you, and this is how you then turn and love your neighbor? How dare you speak His Holy Name with your unctuous mouths! How dare you call your ego masturbation worship! Oh, how dare you call the filthy place where you plan your evil His house!

You are the spawns of Hell, and your hearts are black as coal. You are the epitome of ignorance and worthlessness. Your feet are scarred and blistered from walking to and fro on the earth, stomping out the fire of the Spirit wherever you find it.

You are not worth even these utterances, but they are not for your benefit. You have already so desecrated His Word that words to you are pearls to pigs. I wouldn’t waste my time.

Damn you! Damn you, you haters of Goodness! Were it not for His hand of mercy, you would have murdered a man. I just can’t write anymore right now.

You have raped God.

217

Wow. That is telling them, Lib.! (In case anybody missed the point, Lib’s post was addressed at the “Christians” of whom Glitch spoke in his 2/2/2000 1:43 PM post. My reaction, the three times I read it, started to post, and thought better of it, was only “Ignorant assholes!” But then, I’m reputed to be somewhat mellow.

Glitch, I can only say that I wish there is some way in which I could shoulder some of the pain that experience, and the posting about it, must have cost you.

Ben, that was an acute analysis, but I will ask you to take my word that Jeffery is not suggesting Glitch is at fault. Like myself, he believes in God and is faced with a very tough question, “Where was He (overtly) when Glitch went through what he has described?”

I have done things with entirely good motives and achieved horrible results for reasons I did not know at the time. (Just yesterday… :() Would I do them that way again, knowing what I know now? Of course not. Would I do them again, knowing only what I knew then? Absolutely.

I think if communication fails to occur, whether between two people or between a person and God, both are somewhat at fault. All I can do is think, feel, and communicate the best I know how, and hope that is sufficient. As did Glitch. As Jeffery assumed.

218

Glitch, I am stunned. Not only that you went through what you did, but that you are still willing to attempt a belief in God.

I congratulate you on being a better man than I.

And Jeffery said:

And that’s why I like you. Honestly, I wasn’t using you as a specific example, simply saying the same thing that others have said: That to assume that an atheist wasn’t conducive is pretty annoying. All apologies if you thought I was doggin’ on you.

Waste
Flick Lives!

219

Oh, God, I am so angry. I can feel the heat in my blood.

Glitch:

What an honor it is to have your respect.

220

You have a noble spirit, Glitch. Such courage in seeking and in the face of terrible pain. As for those small-hearted, small-minded ones who hurt you…they are foul. I suspect the words they said to you came from a deep fear that they were unworthy. And they chose to assault your spirit, rather than improve themselves. Stay strong, Glitch. OSU! :slight_smile: