Could You Believe?

[StrTrkr777]

I will not put it quite as passionately or as eloquently as Lib, but I concur. What those people did to you was beneath contempt. I have never been told not to read from non-Christian or non-Biblical works. Why? Because there is more to learn in life than just what is contained in Christian writings. From what they said, they would even damn Poly, Lib, Adam, etc. and I to hell for participating on this board.

I am not their judge, but if I ever felt someone was not a christian it would be someone who would act in this manner.

What they did is worse than what I have seen most non-Christian people do. I am deeply sorry for what you have gone through.

Now, Glitch if I may, I will try not to say anything about what you did or did not do or your reactions. Given the circumstances I can see why you would have reacted that way.

Please, everyone, you can flame me but I mean no disrespect to Glitch, this is just a possible way that I could see this taking place.

I do indeed believe that their is an entity known as Satan that is pure evil. His goal is to keep as many from finding God as possible. In your story you told of you desire to find if God were indeed real and that you were on the verge of becoming a believer. Now, Satan does not want you to become a believer. Once you are he has lost you forever (see above for my belief that once saved always saved). He has to do everything in his power to try to get you to stop and that includes having everyone you are associated with turn against you including the so-called Christian friends. If you kill yourself before you accept Christ, then it is my belief that Satan has won (I do not agree with Poly on this one). Satan got you to a point that you were willing to kill yourself. You prayed to God (at least in desperation to live) to show you he exists and stop you. I do not believe these people received any word from God that you should not remain among them or that God rejected you. God does not reject someone who is seeking him and I do not believe that your reading other books even if they were of other religions is rejecting God. You were seeking the truth. God tells us to seek the truth. Something stopped you from completeing the act. You were injured but still alive. I believe that God was not and is not finished with you yet. I believe God is stronger than death and if you will come to know him then you will not die until you have had that chance. God put in you the will to live. Sure you may have rejected that he exists out of it, but you still leave yourself open to the possibility that he is real.

What if he had simply put in your head a message “Glitch I love you.” Would you know if it was from you or God? He stopped you from killing yourself so that you could continue to seek him. I may be wrong but I get a different sense from you than I do guys like David and Phil. It seems that even though you do not believe in God, that you still sort of seek him. To find if he is real.

Maybe, you or others will find my post offensive. Again, I do not blame you. I am not saying that you did not do enough. If anything you did so much that Satan was so afraid that he conspired to get you to kill yourself. Had the others been more supportive. Had they reacted like Christ would have. Had they helped you to find Christ instead of treating you like you were less than the lowest of God’s creatures. I believe you could have done great things for God and I believe that Satan knew that. I believe that if you ever do find God, you can still do great things for Him.

If nothing else you have done great things in the area of my faith.

Jeffery

[StrTrkr777]

A paltry post to make it to 1000, but this thread is worthy of my 1000th post.

I got to ask, since I have been away from the GD threads for a while. (I got too emotionally involved and got burned out and had to go to MPSIMS for a few months).

What does OSU mean? And what does YMMV mean?

Thanks.

Jeffery

[Lucky]

Glitch;
I commend you on your bravery in sharing your story. I completely identify with what you said.

Jefferey;
I appreciate your tolerance of others and general kindness and understanding. I still feel that the reasons given for why god did not come through are rather lame, but I also know that if there is a god, humans can not expect to understand him. He has me so completely baffled that if he ever wants me, he’s going to have to come and get me. I’ve given it my best shot and am no longer interested in trying to contact him.

Lib;
I think that was the best rant ever posted on these boards! I don’t mean to make light of it—I agree wholeheartedly. But, wow! That was great.

---

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

[Lucky]

One last thought, Jeffery—

Your scenario about satan suggests that satan was able to over-power god and prevent him from helping Glitch. That’s not what you meant, is it?

[Gaudere]

YMMV==Your mileage may vary. “Osu” means “spirit” or “focused human will” or soemthing similar. Glitch would explain better than I. I think it is also used as a greeting between warriors; I hope it is not offensive for a non-warrior like me to say it.

I am a leetle bit annoyed at your crediting Glitch’s decision not to kill himself to God, particuarly since God was apparently playing a very nasty game of hide-and-go-seek at the time (I know, I know, God had good, important reasons not to reveal Himself that my little mind cannot comprehend). I would honor Glitch for his bravery, instead. It is not really my place to get annoyed, either, since it is Glitch’s experience and not mine. But if I were in his situation I’d get a bit peeved. It sometimes gets tiresome for me to have my efforts to do the right thing credited to God, as if He is goosing my naturally cruel and selfish self along the path of righteousness and I am simply “allowing” Him to guide me. So I do not like it when credit for a person’s courage or goodness is given to God and not that person. I am proud, yes, but I like my pride; it makes me a better person.

[Glitch]

First, thank you to everybody for your concern. Oddly enough I do not hold those people to blame, at least not entirely. The three boys were just boys. The obviously viewed their beliefs as a judgement tool. Hopefully, they have grown up. I know I have. I didn’t post that story for sympathy or even empathy. Rather it is germane to this subject. Why doesn’t God show Himself in sincere circumstances?

Admitedly, for quite some time I was very hostile towards Christians. I would say I lived to defy God. Living was, from my point of view, defying God. I don’t see things that way anymore.

Ben:

Re: blaming non-Christians.

I think that this is, indeed, a bit of a cop-out.

It is a bit of a cop-out, but it is also absolutely logical and reasonable, and so hardly surprising. However, that doesn’t let you guys off the hook either!

What is especially frustrating is when some yahoo says “Well, God can’t be at fault and so you are”. You ask, “What did I do wrong?”, Answer: “I don’t know. But it must be something.”

ARGH! Thinking about drives me nuts.

I think to be fair the Christian, if they want to have an open discussion about a person’s experience, is to try to determine what specifically or generally went wrong.

As an example:

I am a proponent of martial arts. If you fail to protect yourself with martial arts it isn’t unusual for me to say “The martial arts didn’t fail you, you failed the martial arts.” Same thing right? Sure, if I then don’t bother to tell them, that they failed because they froze, or because they led with a high kick, etc.

Lib: So what do you really feel?

Glitch, I can only say that I wish there is some way in which I could shoulder some of the pain that experience, and the posting about it, must have cost you.

Funny thing that. I actually feel pretty good about posting it now. Being able to read it (something I have never done before) really allows me to analysis from a different perspective. You know things, like what would I feel if the person in the story wasn’t me?

Also, it has reminded me, that I could be a very different person. I could be filled with hate from that experience. I could be insane. But instead, I am very happy with who I am. Did that have a part in that? I don’t know. Was it an unnecessary detour or just part of the journey that was needed to lead here?

Poly spake:

Would I do them that way again, knowing what I know now? Of course not. Would I do them again, knowing only what I knew then? Absolutely.

I was thinking about a similar question. Related to the above. Would I do everything over again the same if all I knew is that I would end up here? I think the answer is yes. Pain is fleeting, the spirit is forever.

GL:

but that you are still willing to attempt a belief in God.

I can’t help it. It isn’t so much that I want to or anything, it is that I cannot deny my heart. I cannot accept anything less than 100% truth. See 02/02/2000 - 10:56. Sometimes, I wish I could just forget and let it all go.

I congratulate you on being a better man than I.

Thanks, but no thanks. No really. I’m no saint. I have broken noses, bones, scarred eyes and, yes, I have hurt the spirit of others (Sorry Beth about calling you fat in grade 4, I will never let myself forget that, I promise). I am definitely no better than anybody else.

Stay strong, Glitch. OSU!

OSU!

Jeffery:

I have never been told not to read fromcnon-Christian or non-Biblical works. Why? Because there is more to learn in life than justcwhat is contained in Christian writings.

In fairness,

• The minister was told I was reading religious buddhists texts. He apparently didn’t believe me that they weren’t buddhist.
• The assistant minister was told I was a satanist trying to infiltrate and disrupt his group as a long term goal.
• The boys were boys. I don’t absolve them of blame, but I understand that they didn’t understand the cause and effect of things… well except that one who even after accused me of commiting a mortal sin.

Please, everyone, you can flame me but I mean no disrespect to Glitch, this is just a possible way that I could see this taking place.

That’s why I posted the story. So, no flaming Jeffery. If I didn’t want to talk about it, I wouldn’t have put it up.

Now, Satan does not want you to become a believer. Once you are he has lost you forever (see above for my belief that once saved always saved). He has to do everything in his power to try to get you to stop and that includes having everyone you are associated with turn against you including the so-called Christian friends.

Sounds familiar. The minister above told me “Satan will try to keep you from God, but tempting you with cursed knowledge, like these books you are reading” (or something like that).

God put in you the will to live. Sure you may have rejected that he exists out of it, but you still leave yourself open to the possibility that he is real.

Of course, this is where we will disagree. I don’t think He put that will in me at all. But I appreciate you pointing out specifically what you think happened.

What if he had simply put in your head a message “Glitch I love you.” Would you know if it was from you or God?

Now, this confuses me. I hear all the time about how people get feelings from God that they KNOW are God. Why so different for me, under those circumstances? I find it hard to believe that God could put the message out there, but not make it convincing enough that I would know it was Him.

If nothing else you have done great things in the area of my faith.

Always glad to be of service (the bill is in the mail).

Seriously though, that, IMO, is the whole point of discussing this challenge and even this event in my life. I am willing to analyze my faith , all I ask is for Christians to do the same.

[Glitch]

Osu! is Japanese for “push”. It can also mean “persevere” or “endure”

In some Japanese martial arts it is a reply to the instructor. It means “Yes, I will push ahead” “I will endure” “I will perservere”.

These same martial arts typically have concept “The Spirit of Osu!” which is the spirit to push ahead (of course). It means that we pledge to endure and push ahead and grow a stronger and stronger “Spirit of Osu!” that way. It is the indominatable (sp) spirit. It pushes asides or pushes through all obstacles by grinding away until THEY give.

I typically capitalize it because it is usually shouted.

OSU!

P.s. - So, when Gaudere says it to me in the post above Gaudere is saying “Endure!”, my reply is “I will endure”. Osu! -> Osu!

[Ben]

Originally posted by Polycarp:
**
Ben, that was an acute analysis, but I will ask you to take my word that Jeffery is not suggesting Glitch is at fault. Like myself, he believes in God and is faced with a very tough question, “Where was He (overtly) when Glitch went through what he has described?”
**

I’m not trying to be overly critical here, because clearly Jeffery is feeling like he’s doing the best he can, and yet still people get pissed off at him (or at least that’s how I think he’s feeling.) I guess if I had a suggestion for Jeffery, I would say that instead of offering advice he should try to get as much inside our heads as possible- instead of trying to explain to us why God didn’t answer, or trying to figure out for himself why God didn’t answer, he’ll get further if he first tries to figure out exactly what we experienced, and how it felt to us. And I should also say that for all I know, that’s exactly what he’s trying to do.

-Ben

[Gaudere]

Dangit, that’s what I get for always getting my definitions from context instead of from dictionaries. I can use a word properly and still not know what it really means. I didn’t know “limpid” meant “clear” for quite a while, but I knew it was associated with deer/female eyes or pools and I could stick it in when referring to them whenever I needed that particular sound or the connotations associated with it. I should just stick to looking wise.

[StrTrkr777]

I had thought that YMMV was Your Mileage May Vary, but wanted to be sure. I could not come up with what OSU was short for. Now I know that it is not short for anything.

I will post my replies to other threads in a separate thread.

Thanks.

Jeffery

[StrTrkr777]

Ben talks about some of my posts in a couple of different posts.

Ben you are right, I do not need to try to analyze what has happened in others lives without understanding their situation.

But I am trying to understand Glitch’s and anyone elses experiences to try to answer as best I can their questions.

Gaudere, I am sorry if it ticked you off even a bit. Glitch did do the brave thing and live. IMHO killing oneself is an act of cowardice. But just as I must understand where you or he is coming from (nothing is due to God, all things are due to oneself or others), you must also understand where I am coming from, while Glitch did show incredible bravery, I also believe (my personal belief) that God intervened. That belief comes as much from my nature as Glitch’s or your beliefs come from your nature.

Glitch thank you for sharing.

Jeffery

[Ben]

Originally posted by StrTrkr777:
**
But I am trying to understand Glitch’s and anyone elses experiences to try to answer as best I can their questions.**

I think this is the problem, though. Your understanding shouldn’t be an adjunct to trying to answer their questions (with, I assume, some hope of converting them.) You should try to understand them because you can learn from the experience. If you are trying to understand just so that you can answer their questions, then a question like “What were you expecting God to do?” isn’t necessarily one that I’m comfortable with, because I find myself expecting that whatever I say, it will meet the response of, “God did talk to you- he just didn’t do it that way.” But if you are asking me what I expected because you genuinely want to understand what was going through my head for its own sake, then that’s very different- even if my answer is met with, “Did you consider, at the time, the possibility that God was trying to talk to you in a way you couldn’t understand?”

-Ben

[StrTrkr777]

Adam wrote earlier:

Jeffery: I talked about this before, and gave many Scriptures to back it up. The Bible uses the term fall way, or fallen away a few times, to describe our relationship with God. Read Galatians 5:4; Hebrews chapter 2, and 6; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-24;
Also read Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus speaks to the churches, and constantly rewards those who “overcome.” Overcoming means continual action. Constant abiding in God. Never falling away.

But Adam if I read the surrounding verses in Galatians, 5:1-6, it seems to me that Paul is saying that if you are banking on being saved by legal means, then you have gotten (fallen) away from the idea that you can only be saved by grace. I do not see that it means that you can lose God’s grace (lose your salvation).

I did not see anything in Hebrews 2, but Hebrews 6 seems to be talking about drifting away from God, no longer living for him, and that doing so is harmful to the name of Christ. That is if someone calls themself a Christian and then acts in a non-Christian manner then the name of Christ is tarnished. They then need to repent of sins. I still do not see that it makes any statement that one can lose ones salvation.

I saw nothing in 1 Thes. to indicate falling away or anything similar.

I see Rev. 2 as saying repent of your sins. Nothing about losing ones salvation.

I am sorry Adam but all the verses you posted seem to say to me that one must not rely on oneself but on the Grace of God and must repent of one’s sins to be in fellowship with God.

Jeffery

[StrTrkr777]

Ben, I do not seek to convert anyone. I realize that in the area of a message board, people only know me by my words. For all they know I do live as I say I do or I am evil incarnate just pretending to be good.

I seek to truly understand what was/is going on in Glitch’s head as well as yours or anyone else’s heads. However, if I am asked “Why did God not answer?” Then I try to respond. If Glitch was not looking for my or Poly’s or Lib’s or anyone else’s thoughts as to Why God did not respond then I am truly sorry for trying to answer that which he did not ask.

So, Ben I ask you about your experience and I promise not to try to explain God’s lack of response unless you or someone else specifically asks for an answer. Ben, help me to understand your POV. Not so that I may try to convert you, but so that I may learn from you and be a better person.

Jeffery

[Navigator]

OSU… GoooooOOOOOoo Beavs!

Oh… you didn’t mean Oregon State University Beavers… sorry… my mistake!

---

† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

[bigred1]

Lib… I gotta say… you’re right on the money with your angry response. All I could think was “morons”. You did much better than that.

Glitch… I had only one response really. Wow. In jest, a couple of hundered posts back, I had said not to try my method of finding God… I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy. Ok… your post has me “thought tied” (Tongue tied too, but you all wouldn’t be able to know that.)

It keeps just bringing one question to mind…
I would be curious to know if we could ever figure out why one experience drives one person away from God and yet that same experience (or pretty darn similar anyway) drives another person right to God. Any thoughts on this?

Beth

[Liberal]

Were they morons, they might have an excuse for their deed.

“From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.” — Jesus

[Ben]

Originally posted by StrTrkr777:
**I seek to truly understand what was/is going on in Glitch’s head as well as yours or anyone else’s heads. However, if I am asked “Why did God not answer?” Then I try to respond. **

Yes, I understand your position now, and I apologize for not understanding before.

What questions do you have about my experience?

-Ben

[StrTrkr777]

I do not have any specific questions at this time. But (and I am sorry that I do not recall if you have previously stated) did you once consider yourself a believer? What is your general experience?

Jeffery

[GLWasteful]

Glitch:

Thanks, but no thanks. No really. I’m no saint. I have broken noses, bones, scarred eyes and, yes, I have hurt the spirit of others (Sorry Beth about calling you fat in grade 4, I will never let myself forget that, I promise). I am definitely no better than anybody else.

Actually, I wondered how that might be taken as soon as I posted. “Better” is not the right term. Perhaps, “More willing to pursue that which has caused you harm,” is more in line with what I was thinking at the time. Certainly, more willing than I.

Waste
Flick Lives!