Could You Believe?

Great Debates
241

Gaudere said:

Gee. Did Phil loan you his patented sarcasm generator when he started his sabbatical? :slight_smile:

Seriously, I suppose that is a good third-party viewpoint of what it sounds like Christians would say. But I’m fairly sure I’m speaking for Lib as well as myself, and I believe Jeffery too, when I say that we’re as baffled as anybody else here. (Well, a good thoroughgoing atheist would say that the reason God doesn’t show up is the same one that the Easter Bunny never left me any candy last April, but you know what I mean: on the assumption of a god who is said to act in situations like this, why didn’t he?)

I think I’d have to take the following stance, by analogy: If you, or David or Lib, posted something that appeared to be a total flame, combining miscomprehension of everything I had just posted with scathing irony, since I know you as online friends, I would have to take it, not in the insulted/offended spirit I would if trolled by someone I’d never had an intelligent exchange with, but in the sense that clearly something was misunderstood and needs to be straightened out. Or perhaps I am not seeing an underlying irony, where in fact you are agreeing with me and posting, tongue firmly in cheek, the exact opposite. Your immediate motives for that post may be a mystery to me, but your underlying character is not, and therefore it is my task (along with you) to try to resolve the contretemps that gave rise to the flame-post.

In much the same sense, I trust God, whom I know to be loving from personal experience, to have something in mind that is in fact directed at Glitch’s ultimate well-being, no matter how the particular situation appears on the surface. As I know and trust you, so I know and trust Him.

To “preach” this at Glitch in complete contradiction of his experience, though, is very much against the love-neighbor-as-self commandment. To attempt to understand where he is coming from and interpret what may be the underlying motive is not. And I would observe that the experience certainly had much to do with his present moral strength and self-reliance. (Remember his posts about not wanting a loving Intervenor since it is his obligation to osu for his own growth?) Only in this context, which is hypothetical, can I make any sense of what happened, or rather did not happen. And I post it, not to “explain out of my vast wisdom to poor needy Glitch,” but as the one insight one seeker after truth can offer to another as a possibility for his path.

242

Oh, Poly, you lambastic moron. You’re just saying that we’re all too stupid to tell the difference between Christ and the Easter Bunny. Didn’t you realize there wouldn’t even be an Easter without Christ? Lord, my load is heavy.

243

How did I miss this?

Poly: I must disagree. The Kyokushinkan (rule of Kyokushin conduct), for example and other codes are similar, states “The karateka must refrain from violence”. It doesn’t say he must refrain from violence unless the sap really deserves.

Jesus says, if a man strikes you right cheek, turn the left towards him. (or something like that).

The Bushido states (paraphrasing again), Samurai should not hit those who cannot fight. This commonly means, samurai shouldn’t run around hacking up peasant farmers. The farmers lack the training the samurai does, and so it isn’t honorable.

Hitting people is wrong. Nobody ever deserves it (except maybe child and spouse abusers … mental slap bad Glitch … but they do … mental slap bad Glitch …). I broke the guys nose. He will carry that with him forever. I believe in some ways for an eye for an eye, but only as a matter of sociological justice, not personal revenge or anger. By breaking his nose, I confirmed for him that I was an unworthy, violent satanist. I made him a martyr is his own mind to hear him talk of it afterwards anyway.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Some el questiones (some questions):

  1. As stated, I don’t hate these three boys, nor do I hate the ministers involved. Do you think I should? Am I in denial about it? Is it just a delusion to shield me from thinking about it?

  2. As stated, I do not hate God. Should I?

  3. It has been stated that my spirit and principles evolved from this incident. There is a lot (is it alot or a lot?) of truth to this. But I was in the process of reconciling the Spirit of Osu! with Christian philosophy, why did God allow that process to stop? Why didn’t he take steps to kick start it afterwards? Why let me try futile attempts these past 15 years? Is this the God of love, or the Divine Weasal?

  4. Jeff mentioned Satan’s involvement. Somebody else pointed out that this implies heavily that Satan outpowered or outwitted God? Anybody care to comment on this. I don’t think there has been an answer.
    4a) How did Satan manage to, temporarily, convert 5 Christians to his side (two ministers and 3 boys)? Do you think they all were doing his bidding, or just some, which ones? Do you think it was I who was duped by Satan? If so, then do you think he did this by means of getting me to read those books? If so, then does that mean you agree with the minister’s ruling (i.e. the books were a corrupting influence)?

  5. I don’t think this was answered yet either. The reason I posted this was because we were talking about the need to truly believe. I hinted about a time in my life that I truly believed. That was it. Now, since that time, I do not believe. I, for obvious reason, will never allow myself to again, at least not more than the sliver of possibility I allow. It seems to me, then that if I understand properly, there is little chance of acheiving salvation, if true belief that God will reply is a mandatory component of acheiving faith. This to me says, my cause is hopeless (I hope Poly and Lib understand what I mean by that now, cause I think I insulted them a bit). Assuming that I am correct, and my heart will not let myself believe any more than the sliver of possibility, and certainly not to the degree I did way back then (which resulted in failure), how do you see any hope? How do you reconcile the necessity of belief with your belief that there is hope for me?

GL:

I appreciate the compliment. I wouldn’t sell yourself short. I have been fortunate to face opportunities to stare pain, fear, and even death (being stabbed in the back by a mugger) in the eyes. I don’t know your life, but I am sure with similar experiences you would grow in similar ways. It is like Sosai Oyama used to say. “Everybody asks me why I am so good at karate, as if I have some special quality about me. It has nothing to do with me. I train harder than any karateman I know, that is why I am good. If you want to be good, train hard.”

Poly: You are the best. Period. Bar none. I love your insight.

Beth:

There are a few differences, and I think those play a vital role in understanding the ultimate outcome.

You were hurt by man. I was hurt by Christians and by God.

You prayed to God, and got a positive response. I felt more and more alone with each passing moment.

It is difficult to say what would have happened if I had of got a message/feeling from God.

244

Glitch:

My opinions, for what they’re worth…

No, but you should be as angry with them as I am. Can a loving father not be angry with his son?

No. You would only be hating yourself.

“You never know what’s around the corner.” — my mother

Satan has no power over love. When Satan is in control, it simply means that love is not.

As long as there is a tomorrow, there is hope. As long as your spirit is strong, Satan is weak. In my opinion, belief doesn’t come from the heart, but from the head. I believe that your heart is full of faith, faith that God has put there.

I’m not saying your deluded or misguided, but simply that there is something fundamental about yourself that you have yet to discover. When that happens is when it happens.

Glitch, my friend, I will not let you get away with this. If those were Christians, then I am the Antichrist. Please, if you honor me at all, never again associate those thugs with God.

I remember that happening to me too. I’ve told the story here before about my “conversion” in the hippie microbus, but I’ve never told about the very dark days before that. Maybe someday.

245

However, you would be perfectly free to ask us about it. And if you did not get a response, I do not think you must simply “trust”. If you flamed me and did not provide a satisfactory answer why, I would feel justified in thinking 1) you’re having some sort of mental problem right now or 2) you may not be the person I thought you were (don’t even think of flaming me at some point to prove that I won’t, in fact, think that–I’ll know what you’re up to. :wink: ).

It is a question of faith, and I simply must lack the degree of faith you have. Were my own mother to stand and simply watch when I put a sword at my breast and begged her to tell me not to do it, I would doubt her sanity and/or her character. I would wonder about anyone who insisted that my mother was perfectly good and loving and must simply have had an unknown reason for her behavior.

I do not wish to take away your faith in God. But I am sure you could imagine how frustrating it would be if, say, someone believed in a perfectly evil God, and you tried to convince them otherwise by telling them of your positive experiences with God. Then they would say “Oh, he has some perfectly evil purpose for what he did; I know it seemed positive to you, but I have faith that he had his perfectly evil reasons.” You’d probably think “&^%%$! What do I have to do to convince this person? They accept that this positive thing happened, yet they refuse to see it as evidence against their premise!” Again, I’m not trying to slam your faith, just show my perspective a little better.

246

They are worth a great deal in my eyes.

Strangely, enough I don’t find that I am angry with them either. Do you think I am in denial? Please be honest, I cannot stand delusion. If I am kidding myself, I need to know.

Granted, but even so doesn’t those actions I spoke of have some resemblance to the Divine Weasal? Would you agree that, ignoring any mysterious plan or future developments, that a person, i.e. me, would be justified in thinking that the actions smell of the Divine Weasal?

Glitch dumb. Me no comprende? :wink:

Please relate it to my experience above, if possible. I don’t get it.

I meant solely that at the time it was my perception that is was Christians and God that had hurt me. I do not associate them with Christianity any more than I associate any other judgemental ass.

My apologies for the confusion.

247

Glitch:

Possibly.

How would you feel about any con artist who, having filled you with hope and anticipation, suddenly ambushes you with his final tactic, pulling out from under you everything you were standing on?

Me, I’d be pissed.

Again, possibly. But I believe the divine weasel would have let you die. Alive and renewed, you are a testament to his impotence.

Remember when I told you that Jesus said, “Where your treasure is, there your heart is also.”? Those guys treasured lording their own ego over yours. There was no love (no God) in their hearts.

I should have known that. Mea culpa.

248

I think you are right not to be angry at them, Glitch, and I can understand. I am not really angry at people who have hurt me; I suppose what I feel is more akin to pity (once I cool down a bit). I do think those who hurt you did so out of their own fears and ignorance, and by their actions they are dooming their chance to be a person worthy of respect. I’ll admit that I felt some anger towards them, but more than that I wish I could make them understand why what they did was wrong, so that they will become better people and never do so again.

249

Since Glitch asked and since I started this I will answer these questions to the best of my understanding.

Glitch asked:

I do not think you should hate them, as Lib has said that is the opposite of love and seems to be outside of your nature. I think our anger (which is not necessarily a sin) came from our being slapped in the face by the actions of “Christians” that brought you (a friend) to the brink of suicide. You have had time to deal with it and decided to forgive them (if you have, Have you forgiven them?).

Next Glitch asked:

I should hope not. See Lib’s response above.

Glitch then asked:

I do not believe that God allowed the process to stop, I think he is still letting it process based on your acceptance of this and other challenges and based on your nature. Glitch correct me if I am wrong, but do you believe that you are where you are due to your hard work. In your job and in your martial arts abilities, have you acheived success because you have worked hard and studied hard? If you are the kind of man I believe you to be, then I believe this to be the case. However, in the matters of God, you cannot work hard enough to get it. You just have to accept that He gives it to you without all the effort.

Glitch then asks a tough one:

I do not believe that Satan outwitted or overpowered God. God allows Satan to do most anything and people to make their own decisions. Satan did not have to convert these folks. He preyed on their righteous indignation (always wanted to say that). That is he took the fact that they were all high and mighty super Christians. Then he whispered in their ear that the books you were reading were evil and of the Devil. He knew that these folks believed that the Devil is evil, so use it against them. What irony, huh? They did not need to read these terrible books they knew that they were evil. Once he got these folks to react negatively against you, he whispered in your ear, that maybe they are right. Maybe God does not love you. Maybe there is something evil about the martial arts or the books you were reading. Maybe the only way to resolve it was to kill yourself. The books were just a means for the super Christians to rally behind. If you had not been reading those, then it would have been the evil rock music or the evil movies, or some other such thing. The books, IMHO, were not a corrupting influence. The lack of Christ’s love from these “Christians” was the corrupting influence.

Glitch then asks:

I may be wrong and I certainly do not know your heart nor what happened back then. But I get the sense that if you did not accept him back then, then you are a lot closer to doing so right now than you would imagine. Glitch and others please do not be insulted. I know that some folks do not like to be prayed for or they do not want “Christians” telling them they can still be saved. But, I get the sense, from your accepting this and other challenges over the years, that you not only have it in your heart to believe, but I believe that deep down inside you want to believe. The bible says the only man who is beyond hope is the one who has truly hardened his heart and will not let the love of God in.

Let your mind go Glitch. God is not of the mind, as Lib has stated, He is of the heart. I feel you have the mind and heart of a warrior. Sometimes a warrior has to let his knowledge go and go with his heart. Many battles have been won that did not work on paper or in the mind, but when the warriors fought with their hearts, they were able to accomplish more than imaginable. Trust God, not with your mind, but with your heart.

Glitch I do not know you personally and would not know you if I met you on the street. But Glitch, knowing that you do not believe in God, I would, if necessary give my life so that you would still have the opportunity to find God. Why would I do that? Because your soul and everyone else’s in this world is that important to me.
Jeffery

250

Gaudere:

Forgive me, but once you’ve gotten an evil man to understand that he is evil, how will he make progress until his heart is renewed?

251

The “evil man” need to learn love and empathy, Lib. I suppose someone who is wholly without capability of love is without hope for “true” morality; they can only be restrained by fear of punishment. But, as I said, love begets love. Is that what you mean by his heart being renewed? Honestly, is hating those boys going to help them to see what they did was wrong, or will it only pull them in deeper into their little world of selfishness and cruelty? You don’t have to allow them to hurt others, but to help those boys I think you would have to treat them with love and respect even as you tried to get them to undertstand the errors of their ways. You shouldn’t even pity them, either, as I do, but hey–I never said I was perfect. :slight_smile: I daresay I could have a better attitude towards them if I needed to.

252

Glitch:

A wise man once said: “It is unnecessary to attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.”

I respect your point about your mother hypothetically standing by while you essayed suicide, and what that would say about her putative love for you. So let me break out another one of my handy-dandy analogies: Nicole, Chris’s sister, is diabetic, of the stress-induced juvenile-onset type. Blood sugar stable, she is a sweet and generous take-charge-style independent woman. Blood sugar off, she can be very irrational, hostile, 99.44% pure bitch. I have learned that the best way to handle the latter situations is to (a) ignore her anti-me reactions for the most part and (b) get one of the two or three people that can get through to her to either get her blood sugar stabilized or get her to the hospital. My apparent stoicism in the face of her crisis is not because I don’t love her, it’s because I do.

By analogy, God knows the outcome of your attempt, Glitch. He knows that it leads to the eventual strengthening of your spirit and inurement against all adversity. So he declines to intervene, to assist (albeit by restraining himself from acting) in making you who you are. This falls short of being a good explanation even in my eyes, because his evident “withdrawal” from you for the period since then is not accounted for. But it constitutes an initial approach to reconciling the existence and lovingkindness of God with your experiences as reported. I offer it purely tentatively, for what value you may find in it.

I concur in Gaudere’s 10:52 AM post. I felt strong loathing for their deeds and for the attitudes that would lead them to do this. But I realized that it was akin to the anger I felt towards Adam back in early Fall when his posts were turning people off towards Christianity. I took him to task for them then, trying to do so in a spirit of “loving reprimand of an erring brother” (something very tough to sustain without falling into judgmentalism), and I believe we are friends, insofar as you can use that term of co-posters who have never met in real life. We both see errors in the other’s view of Christianity, but we are working together to understand the ways of God and man.

253

I never said to hate them. In fact, you should love them. But you should be very very angry. In my opinion.

Contrition is what opens the heart. A righteous anger will make a good man contrite. When the heart is open, then it can be filled with love.

254

Jeffery said:

Probably the second-best definition of grace I have ever seen. (The first is from a George Strait song, of all places.)

“The only way to win that war [for a woman’s heart] is by starting with unconditional surrender.” -Lois McMaster Bujold

Finally, two more quotes:

255

Well, it is definitely questionable if they were “good men”. When confronted with righteous anger, people have two choices: accept the rebuke and try to make amends, or stubbornly insist that they are in the right, thereby convincing themselves even more firmly that their actions are acceptable. If they do not respect the opinion of the person who is righteously angry at them, they will feel no contrition. So first you need to get them to value your opinion; and you don’t do that simply by being angry at them.

256

Hmm–I see you did mention loving them, Lib, which is pretty much my point. But anger, even righteous anger, is a very tricky thing; it easily can make the other person feel “attacked” and then they will no longer listen. I think you can rebuke without anger, although sometimes a little righteous rage can be a useful attention-getting device, to hammer home the seriousness of the offense. I think that for Glitch to be “very, very angry” would simply be a waste of his energy; he knows very well what they did was terribly wrong. What is the use of harboring strong anger in this instance?

257

Before or after I broke his limb off and beat him with them?

You’re right, of course, I would be pissed too!

I need to think about this.

Good question. I don’t know. I don’t remember forgiving them, but I guess I must have, because that is the only reason I can imagine for not being angry.

Interesting. How does this match up with your previous posts on sincerity and belief? They seem contradictory. Can you straighten it out for me?

I know I cannot prove this, but I know I did. I think it is that knowledge which hurts the most. I know I did. At that moment, nothing could be clearer in my mind. I know it more than I know anything else. I do not doubt it in the slightest. I know I did. When I finished my last prayer I don’t know how long I just sat there. It seemed like an eternity. It was probably just a few seconds. My belief in God was complete, but He wasn’t answering. Utter total and complete hopelessness. Complete oblivion. Even my crying stopped. There was no point in crying any longer. It was all gone.

An interesting idea. I don’t know if it is true or not. I don’t feel like it is true. I only accept and make these challenges out of honesty. There is no part of me that feels like it wants to believe, except that sliver that I leave as a possibility.

As posted before, the existence of God would be very discouraging to me. So, why bother to look? Because I would rather be discouraged and know the truth, then live a lie with strength.

And you don’t think this describes me? I don’t want the love of God anymore, I think.

I mean no insult, but it undoubtedly be taken that way … but trust God? I don’t think so. I know you don’t believe this, but God left me to die. I am convinced of this. I don’t see any reason to believe otherwise. I think there is plenty of reasons to believe that my belief is accurate. I won’t open myself up to that kind of possible pain again. Never again.

Ack! Free will violation! Free will violation!

If God choose the event and knew the outcome then that is a free will violation!

This thread has been very positive and negative for me. I think writing down the story for the first time was informative. But it has really shown me that my whole life revolves around that one event. Every aspect of my core principles, and even secondary principles are revolved around that one event. Hardly surprising. However, it is very concerning to me that God wasn’t there. It only strengthens my belief in three possibilities:

  1. Divine Weasal
  2. Divine Me
  3. No God

#1 I reject out of contempt. #2 is irrelevent. So that leaves #3.

It is very concerning to me that all the things I have gone through since then as a result of this one event. It is staggering when I start thinking about it.

If I adopt the theist mind for a moment, it seems clear to me that the suicide attempt was choosen specifically by whatever god there is. It is too critical an event for it to be a fluke, in a god created universe.

So, if this god knew I wouldn’t kill myself, then I suffered for nothing. I suffered afterwards for nothing. I don’t exactly feel like the captain of my own destiny anymore (common sense tells me, if not a logical proof, that I had no free will for a period of my life if any of it). This is very discouraging, which of course bring me exactly back to why I don’t think I want to know if God exists. It would be too discouraging to know for sure.

An interesting catch-22.

“Glitch … download” - Glitch’s final action. sniff

258

I wrote and then Glitch replied:

In the above, are you talking about the point in you life where you were most likely to believe in God? What was this last prayer? I am a bit confused as to when this occurred. You say that at that moment nothing could be clearer in your mind. You then say that you do not doubt it in the slightest. Then you say your belief in God was complete, but he was not answering. Was this before the suicide attempt or are you talking about the suicide attempt?
Jeffery

259

The last prayer.

When I got home I wasn’t thinking about talking to God. It was only as I prepared to actually die, that I thought maybe I better pray (suicide is a mortal sin afterall). At that moment, when I made each of those prayers I did believe that God would answer them, and I am also very certain I wanted Him to. I know that for sure, for sure, for sure. If you could ask me in person I would say so with hestitation or doubt. I would say that in believe in the power of the martial arts with more doubt than I would say that I knew He was there. That’s why I was so stunned when there was no answer. I couldn’t believe it. I think more than anything that it was the utter silence of my heart and mind that convinced me that indeed I was fit only for death. There was no thought anymore. No reasoning anymore. No feeling anymore. Nothingness. My mind and heart were totally empty. It was anger at towards god that snapped me free. I wasn’t going to die for the Divine Weasal. And boy did I get angry. The next year was terrible. I hurt a lot of people during that year. I abused my strength, and abused my spirit to dominate and destroy. My actions were criminal per se, and certainly not random. No, I am very certain that my hostility was towards Christians, Christianity and God.

Again, these things are concerning to me. They imply a certain amount of weasalness. I will never be prepared to look for any god without that thought in my heart. I reject the weasal though because it isn’t what I think a true god would be, so without the weasal that only leaves no god at all.

Again, I know I cannot prove it. It is only my word, against the nature of God. And I certainly don’t want to insult or question your faith. You guys have my respect, which only makes this more difficult for me. How can I be right, if all of you can’t possibly be stupid enough to be wrong? Maybe I could accept one or two people I respect being wrong. We all make mistakes, but there are too many people I respect for that to be so. Very frustrating. Yet, I know what I know. I have a difficult time reconciling the two. They seem mutually exclusive. I appreciate everybody’s patience with my spiritual ineptitude. I’ll learn, just give me some time, and beat me over the head some more. Some of my best lessons came from kicks to head, I see no reason why this couldn’t be the same.

“Glitch … download” - Glitch’s final action. sniff

260

Glitch:

God wasn’t there?

Replay…

I sat in stunned silence. I really thought He would fill me His spirit. So, I closed my eyes, took a [breath], and leaned slowly forward onto the blade. As it cut into me, I thought “No, I don’t want to die.” … a moment “Why should I die for shaming God who won’t love me?”. I let go of the sword.

Think of where you were that moment…

You had just been conned by the lowest of con men. It wasn’t God Who told you not to read those books. The usurpers told you that. They were not believers in God, but believers in the Bible. And even that they twisted to their own perverted ends.

They had led you to believe that there was a conflict between your karate and your faith, when in fact your karate could have been an expression of your faith. They did what Jesus called straining gnats and swallowing camels. They were obsessed with what Phil calls “piddly shit”, while neglecting the vastly more important principles of the teachings that are common to both Jesus and the martial arts.

You asked God a lot of questions, the answers to which you already knew, unless you had sought Him from those thugs rather than from His own Word. His Word tells you why He wants you to live. Forever. His Word tells you that you are forgiven. Unconditionally. His Word tells you that He will never leave you. You already knew all these things.

I went home in tears and disgrace. I had decided I had to die.

What would a Being of boundless and unconditional love do? If you could not hear His voice because you were mired in dishonor and desperation? If you were sheathed in pain and torment so unspeakable that even the silence was deafening? As the sword began to pierce the flesh of an innocent creature whom He loved as His own Son, what would He do?

He would not hesitate. He would scream above the din of all the hopelessness, “Renounce me! Renounce me! Say that I’m not real, but stay your hand!”

Would He not rather let you go than break your arm while holding you? Would He not rather let you get on with your life and recover, and then rejoin you at some later time?

We all have felt forsaken from time to time. Even Christ Himself felt this. We all have shied away from our rendezvous with God. Even Christ Himself did this. We all have been the victims of evil men. Even Christ Himself was crucified.

It was your heart that was crushed that fateful day, Glitch. Your mind was confused, but your heart was broken. God healed it by letting you go. But He never went away, and you know this too. In your heart.

I submit that if God weren’t there, you’d be a dead man.

If you decide to seek Him out and query Him about all this, just do me one favor. Stay away from Christians. Develop your own relationship with Him. You don’t need anybody else to tell you what you can read or whether you can fight. Everything that is done for His glory is a good thing.

I’ll stop now. I hope I haven’t upset you. Peace to you, my friend.