No, Glitch I do not believe it describes you in the least. If you had completely hardened your heart, you would not even bother discussing these things. Besides, you say in your own words that you **think ** you do not want to love God anymore. You are not sure.
I wrote:
Glitch responded
Okay, lets say for the moment that God does not exist. Then taking a chance and trusting that which is not there (as long as you do not rely on that which is not there for life) will not hurt you. Now, if he does exist, then he could hurt you or he could not. Lets look at the “He could hurt you” option. If he is God with all power. Then he can hurt you even if you do not trust in him or even believe in him. Now let us look at the “He does not hurt you” option. It was people supposedly acting in His name that treated you in that manner. All God did was not do anything to stop you. You want free will, he gave it to you. You want to kill yourself he was going to let you. Do you want to do those things now? Then I think the pain you felt before is almost impossible as long as you do not rely on people too much.
Glitch wrote in response to Poly:
Glitch you state that a large part of who you are came from this event. Do you not like who you are? Let us imagine that had you not gone through this, what if you were a much different person than you are today.
I have not done this in the past, but here is a parallel to Star Trek.
There was an episode where Q (a god-like being in Star Trek) is talking with Picard who is outside of his body because he is dying because of an injury he sustained to his artificial heart. Q tells him that if he had had a human heart he would not be dying right now and he gave him the opportunity to change the past and not do what he did that caused him to have an artificial heart (He had gotten into a fight and got stabbed in the heart). He took it and found that instead of being the captain of the ship, he was just a science officer. Riker gave him an evaluation “You are good at your job, but you will never be in command because you refuse to take risks.” He decided he would rather die having been who he was because of his past than live and be this new person with a good heart.
Glitch if you could erase that event and all things that led up to it, but doing so would likely change who you are possibly including your wife and child(ren) would you? If not, then maybe God did not do such a bad thing.
Dang Lib, I do not know about Glitch but that was about the best analysis of what God might have done in such a situation.
It really brought tears to my eyes and sent shivers up and down my spine.
Glitch, out of curiousity, in all of your study and challenge, did you ever ask Jesus into your heart or did you say, “Not, yet but maybe soon.”
You have got one of the most powerful testimonies, eventhough you are an atheist, that I have ever heard.
A problem that I have fallen into in the past, is I do not really hear God audibly speak to me, but I thought that everyone else who is a Christian does. I thought this meant that maybe I was not a Christian. I did not doubt my conversion was true, but still I did not hear a booming voice from above speaking to me. Then I realized, when I am in a situation and an appropriate scripture reference comes to mind, that is God speaking to me. When I think on a situation and a solution comes God is leading me. Sometimes it is my wife’s voice reminding me the right way to go. Sometime it is a friend. Sometimes it is silence, just so I can think and reflect on him. When a song comes to mind that is appropriate. God is everywhere and he speaks in many different ways. Maybe God could have created a glow in the room and spoken with a loud voice, and maybe at that time you would have believed. But later you might have convinced yourself that you just wanted to live and had under the stress imagined it. With the circumstances that have unfolded you know what happened and in the viewpoints of a few christians who love you, God was there and not just to watch you die. He was there to make sure that you lived.
Just do not ever lose that desire for honesty and the truth.
Well, Jeffery, you’ve hit on one of the things I find most annoying about Christians and, since it was alluded to before, I feel compelled to share.
Why is it that when my mother, the good, honest woman that she is, steers me in the right direction it is god working through her to communicate with me. But when some wino tells me to fuck off and tries to push me in the street, god doesn’t enter into it?
I know, god is all powerful, so he uses that power to comminicate with us in varied and mysterious ways. Satan is always trying to steer us away from god, but god doesn’t intervene because we have free will. So what? God refuses to intervene to thrwart satan, but will readily jump in to keep me on the rightous path when I’m not being bothered by satan?
It is very frustrating to me, and I think a lot of atheists, to have our hard work credited to god. Many of us have gone through years of struggle with our beliefs and, in the end, found god to be unlikely. After all that, to work hard every day at developing one’s character only to be told by a christian that everything good that one does is only becasue god is helping out is, at the very least, maddening. I know it makes sese from your perspective, and I’m not trying to tell you off. I just want to alert you to the way such sentiments sound to non-believers.
“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal
You’re a beautiful man with a wonderfully innocent spirit. I appreciate you.
Lucky:
My heart really goes out to you. My friends here who call themselves atheists have really finally gotten across to me at least a kernel of what they are experiencing. I guess I would liken it to my being told that I use God for a crutch. It evokes the same feeling of, “Excuse me?”
Knowing, as I do, that He is the love in your heart, your hard work is not wasted simply because He loves you. It isn’t that He has been “helping you out”. It is that He has been heeding your will that He stay out of your way. He would certainly be the last to make Himself into His own hinderance.
I’ve really learned to look at atheists in a new way. Like, um, as people. :o
I think you’re wrong when you say that God does not exist. But I don’t think you’re wrong when you say that you have every reason to doubt that He does.
This really is just an aside, I didn’t go into lots of detail about the discussions with the ministers or the three stooges (My new designation for them following the Satan logic). Karate wasn’t a problem. Oriential philosophy was the problem, from their perspective. Actually, and this is a real laugh, the assistant minister a month earlier was very upset with the fact that I practiced Kyokushin or Kyokushinkai, which means “Ultimate Truth” or “Way of the Ultimate Truth”. Truly bizarre. I am surprised they didn’t want to get “ultimate” & “truth” removed from the dictionary for fear that somebody would replace their Bible with a dictionary.
This is where we split, good friend Lib.
I may have known that before. I may know it again someday (other that as a theological construct). But then, I didn’t know that. That is what I needed to be reminded of. I wanted to know:
a) Why I should live? (x3)
b) Barring that, just at least tell me there is a plan for me.
c) Barring that, just at least tell me you don’t want me to die.
d) Barring that, just at least tell me that you love me.
e) Barring that, just at least tell me what I have done wrong, and tell me I can redeem it.
f) Barring that, just please forgive me.
g) Barring that, just don’t leave me.
Clearly, I wasn’t thinking straight. I little nudge of a reminder would have been enough. As you say, my mind was confused, but so was my heart, except on one issue, I knew He was there.
Re: the next few paragraphs.
Your reasoning and wisdom are impeccable. I have a hard time seeing it that way. I hate to put up such a weak reply, but I thought about what you posted, and I will think about it some more, as time permits, but it just doesn’t feel right.
Truly, your beliefs are … bizarre. But I mean that in a good way. They make more sense they the typical stuff, but it is just so different. Or maybe I don’t understand the typical stuff.
Again, I need to put more thought into this, but I have never tried to seek God without some sort of guidance or prodding. I don’t think I can. To seek in the name of honesty with regards to others is one thing, but to seek on my own accord? It sounds unusual. I don’t know how I would go about it. Again, it seems like a vicious circle, I would have to believe a little in order to start, I don’t believe enough to start, ad infinitum.
I don’t think you could upset me, Lib. You are a deliverer of truth and reason. Why would the truth be disturbing to me? I hope I am not trying your patience with my ridiculous questions. I think I know how you must feel. To have the truth, but to have to keep repeating it and spelling it out in painful detail. I feel that way in the dojo sometimes (Stop being such a chicken shit and go takes some shots and deliver some back, what you think he’s going to walk into your fist?)
If it means anything to you, I hope God blesses you for your wisdom and patience.
Like with Lib’s comments, I find this interesting but bizarre. I discuss this to seek the truth, and to keep myself honest, not to find God. I say “I think” only because I do allow for the possibility that I am fooling myself. I don’t consider that likely. My track record for hunting down personal illusions has been pretty good.
Sounds like a modified Pascal’s Wager.
The problem, as I see it, is that the first assumption isn’t entirely correct. Opening myself up again isn’t a matter of flipping a switch. It is a major life altering decision. It would take a lot of time, and a lot of study, and a lot of prayer, and despite Lib’s advice, probably contact with Christians for guidance.
Sure, but not on my own accord. Two different things in my eyes.
Again, you make sense on one level, but on deeper more personal level … not. I have a difficult time accepting it so simply. I mean all God did was not stop me? But I asked Him to stop me? What kind of God is this then? Certainly, it isn’t the god that a lot of people have described. I hope you can see my confusion.
How can I be sure that my heart won’t be crushed again? In the last serious pursuit of salvation it was? In my heart, it doesn’t matter that it was people in His name, what matters is that He didn’t seem to be there when I absolutely needed Him most. I realize (as per Lib’s reasoning above) that I could be wrong about this, but I don’t feel that way. Not in the slightest.
Here and now, sure. It would have been nice to get here with a few less injuries however. Because of my nature, I carry a lot of my past with me. I consider it a critical element to personal honor (whole other story). I hold deep regrets for a lot of stuff that happened because of that attempted suicide. I have paid a very steep price because of that one event. I always knew it was high, I never realized just how … central it was until reading the story myself. It is discouraging to me to think that at my core is attempted suicide. That is my foundation. [sarcasm]Great.[/sarcasm]
Also, I cannot help but think that, that year was just an unnecessary detour.
I am not really sure what this means. Could you splain.
I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that every thing that happens is due to God’s influence. I just meant that I realized that I can hear God’s message to me through other people. I can even feel that God is communicating to my through not only Poly’s or Lib’s posts but from yours, Glitch’s, Gaudere’s etc. Not that he is telling you guys what to say, but the words bring to mind things that I should say or should be doing.
My words here do not necessarily come directly from God, but they come from my years of study and time spent with God along with my personal experiences. I pray that God will speak through me as well as Poly, Lib and others to answer questions asked of him in a manner that is pleasing to him.
I am sorry if I offended you or the others. On the contrary I recognize that if you do not follow God, then most things in your life are due to you work and your decisions. Same with me, I just believe that God helps me make more informed decisions.
I think I can explain much better some of the last few posts.
Imagine the following story:
There’s this guy. He is tormented by some so-called Christians into wanting to kill himself. So, as he prepares to die he calls out to God with all sincerity and belief, for God to help him out.
Now, be honest, how does your theological beliefs tell you how that story would end?
Now, the smart person says, I don’t know who can predict the will of God, but come on … deep down your thinking I bet God filled his heart with the Holy Spirit and the man died and was reborn! Right?!? … come on now … be honest with me.
Nothing wrong with that. Why wouldn’t you think the best of God? He is all-loving, perfection, right?
But, as you know that isn’t what happened to me. Sure it is possible knowing the ending to try to justify or explain what may have happened, but see this from my POV. The God I was told about didn’t show up. The God who loves me, and wants to protect me, and save me, didn’t show up, again all from my POV. I got the Divine Me at best, the Divine Weasal at worst. Maybe this indicates a problem with the way Christianity is presented. I wasn’t looking for a genie, I was looking for that love that everybody tells me is so bountiful from the Lord. When I needed it most, when I begged for it most, it wasn’t there.
All sorts of possible explanations. But those explanations are produced without feeling what I felt. This is not fault of the explainer, but it doesn’t make me feel much better about the whole affair.
And any explanation has a slight little bit of Divine Weasal in it, at least from my point of view. This was a terrible low for me. How can anything less than feeling love from God not have a bit of Divine Weasal in it?
Perhaps I wouldn’t feel so badly about this whole thing if maybe I had of dropped the sword without injury. But I stuck the sword into my chest aimed upwards under my ribcage for my heart. I managed to cut skin, blood vessels and muscle. To me this was the most important moment of my life. To God it seemed like it was just another trial for me. I am not a test case. I don’t like being put through trials and tribulations to see if I have faith. I didn’t like cutting my body open, and I don’t really care if the outcome was positive, falling onto that sword hurt and hurts me in every way possible, but not nearly as much as being rejected (again form my POV) by the one being in the whole universe who loves me. This causes me great pain, maybe not on a daily basis, but not a month goes by where I don’t wake up in a sweat.
I know you guys don’t mean any insult, and really (no REALLY) none is taken. I appreciate you explanations, it was I asked for, but … I don’t know. I expected something different from God, and explanations as to maybe what might have been going on don’t really make me feel better. It certainly doesn’t inspire me to go full tilt at theism again.
I am only human. I cannot ever come to God like I did that time. I don’t understand why He doesn’t see that and come to me, like I asked him to 17 years ago. I’ll never understand, but each day that goes by convinces me more:
<strike>Divine Weasal</strike> out of contempt.
<strike>Divine Me</strike> as irrelevent.
No God at all.
I am enjoying the discussion very much, and again I have not been hurt or insulted by anything said. I am learning lots, and I am getting lots to think about. So, if you have more comments keep them coming.
You and Gaudere have relit my spirit like I have not known since my Christian infancy. You’ve renewed the innocent joy I once knew. Whatever y’all believe in, even if it ain’t squat, I feel like you’re my soulmates.
I’m going to have to say I agree with Glitch’s analysis (naturally). I can see the theist’s point, too, and I’m sure it’s frustrating to them to try to give answers when they can’t really know what God thought or did. So they must believe that for some reason, Glitch couldn’t hear God, or God had some ultimate purpose that will make this all for the best. It is frustrating for the atheists too, since there is little you can do about the 900-pound gorilla of “God only does things for the best, so whatever He did must have been for the best.” We don’t know that if Glitch did get a sign, that he wouldn’t be a very happy Christian right now. We don’t know if God had anything to do with his decision not to kill himself. We don’t know if what happened was for the best or not.
I came to my atheism far less traumatically than Glitch did. I suppose “came to” is poor wording; I have never seriously believed in any supreme being. I don’t see any need for God, although I will investigate to try to figure out for myself if it is true, because I like to believe true things. I like being an atheist; I like feeling as if my life and choices–and any blame or credit for them–are mine alone. Besides, there’s always lots of Guinness and Bass at the Evil Amoral Atheist Conspiracy Picnic.
First, Lib, I do not want to speak for Poly or Lib, but I for one will not tire of trying to answer your questions.
Glitch wrote:
You say you knew God was there. Of this I have no doubt. I guess I am just not sure what you wanted to hear or have happen for him to answer your questions. The thing is I do not think that most people have ever experienced a situation where they know that God is there, then decide that he does not exist.
Glitch wrote:
Again I do not want to speak for Lib, but I interpret it that you have to be careful of relying on man for your salvation or knowledge of God. Man is fallible, God is not. It is easy to get into a church that sounds good and then find out too late that they are misguided. I do not think most cult people go into it believing weird stuff. Just temper every thing that is said or taught to you by studying the word of God. Then as you spend time with God and grow in him, he will lead you.
Glitch wrote:
Glitch did you choose not to get married or have children because of fear of your heart being crushed? No, you said earlier that you had both a wife and one or more children. But they can hurt you. Hopefully they will not, but it happens. Glitch this is the result of our loving and the pain that goes with it when our loved ones are hurt or worse when they hurt us.
Glitch no matter what I say to you I can not really hurt you. Why? Because while there may be respect between us, the only love is in a cyber-friendship way. However, your wife could choose to hurt you badly. If she told you she did not love you anymore, would that not crush you? What if one day one of your children said, “I do not even consider you my father.” Would that not be more painful than death? So why do you love then, because life without love is not worth living. I believe that God is the ultimate love.
Glitch wrote:
Here I am confused. You state that the attempted suicide is at your core. That it is your foundation. Then you say that it was an unnecessary detour that you were on the same path before. How can it be both ways? If the suicide attempt did not change your path much, then it is not your foundation for who you are. If it is your foundation, then how can you have been on the path that got you here today.
To a question about Glitch having accepted Christ into his heart he then wrote:
I am not sure we know for a while, and only after maturing in our faith if we have truly invited him in. I am interested in did you believe you did so without anyone pressuring you?
I wrote:
Glitch replied:
I do not know how to explain what I mean here without sounding offensive. Along the lines of God uses people for his purposes.
Whatever happens, I have throughly enjoyed these posts.
Glitch you are right. I would like for the story to have ended “God sent a light from heaven and spoke to Glitch and said Glitch my child, I love you. Forget about those others and look to me for guidance.” We know it did not happen. Can I really know why God did what he “didn’t” do? Nope.
But being me, I have to believe that he not only was there (you said yourself that he was) and that he gave you what you needed to not kill yourself. If it were the weasel, he would have let you finish the job.
My apologies for the last post. It was more hostile that I intended it to be. I really mean that. I am very pleased with this thread. It really helps me out a lot, even if it doesn’t seem like. I have a whole bunch of stuff that I need to ponder. I have some early thoughts, I’ll share those later. I need to think some more.
Seriously, I have always been told that God is a feeling. So, I wanted to feel something other than a desire to die. But anything would have been better than nothing.
I knew God was there at the time. Afterwards, I was very angry with God, who I felt was still there. As time passed, I came to realize that the god who must exist was as we now call him “The Divine Weasal”, but I still felt he was there. Then I came to realize that “The Divine Weasal” simply doesn’t match what a supreme being would be like. So, I came to realize that there must not be a god, or at a minimum no god worthy of worship. I hope the clarifies it sufficiently.
And that, sadly, is the key difference then. I now longer believe that except to accept it as a theological construct, as an assumption for the basis of applying some logic or reasoning.
I think I am a worse person for having suicide at my core. I find this notion very depressing. I think many things about me would be the same if I hadn’t taken the detour, but I think I would be a better person without the core I have. Imagine, I could of had strength of spirit at my core, instead the concept of strength of spirit surrounds suicide. It greatly saddens me to realize this, because now I know for sure that delusion is a part of my life. A big part. So much so that for 17 years I didn’t even know myself. I always that Osu! was at the center of me.
Again, I am not 100% sure, but I believe so. I guess it depends on what you mean.
I understand. No offense taken. Feel free to share it with your congregation if you think it would bolster thier spirits.
I’ll be around (my senior instructor is teaching tonight) thinking.
First off, let me say that I am finding it hard to formulate my thoughts into words. None of this is intended as derrogatory or a slam… it is my attempt to put my thoughts into words.
Glitch, you said:
I have to say here, that I very rarely experience God as a feeling of any kind. Feelings are so fleeting and variable and inconsistent; to me, this is not how God is “defined”. He was not a feeling even at my “conversion experience”. He is a … a knowledge, a consistancy… and so much more that I can’t seem to find the words for.
One of the hardest things that I have had to learn is that it is ok to be angry with God… angry at God even. I didn’t try to understand the "why"s, I just let my anger exist. I guess that is what kept me from thinking of God as “The Divine Weasal”. I have a point here, but I can’t formulate it into words.
I have printed out this thread… not a small task mind you… and hope to post more later.
Glitch… at the risk of getting flamed in some way for the following statement… you are in my prayers. A prayer that in some way you will be able to live in peace and not wake up once a month in a sweat, and an understanding of “why”. I can’t know if or when God will reveal Himself to you in a way that will make sense to you and also not cause you more pain. Thank you for being open with us on this thread. You have made a difference in my life.
Glitch did you know the feeling of love for someone outside of your family the first time you felt it. I do not mean lust or infatuation. Those feelings are strong but fleeting. Love is sometimes a strong feeling and sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is just the comfortableness of the situation. Do you love your wife more today than when you met her? I would venture a guess that you do. Why is that? A lot is due to the fact that you have spent lots of quality time with her and you trust and love each other. A relationship with God is no different.
I believe I understand how you came to feel about the feeling that God was present in your room at the time. Thanks for the clarification.
A suicide attempt is a part of the experiences that shape you. You can never get rid of this aspect of your life. But I do not believe that it is exactly at your core and that you are a worse person for having be through it. I hope dredging this up is not making you feel negative things about your life or your experiences.
I was just interested in if you had believed that God had sent his son Jesus to die for your sins and admitted that you were a sinner and asked Christ to forgive you and ask him to come into your heart and chose to serve him. And if you did so of your own free will and at a prompting of no one but God. I hope that is clear and not too churchy.
Thank you for your thoughts on how people experience God. I’ll store that away in the old database.
Interesting. I don’t think I have ever heard anybody say that before. Anybody else have a comment on that? My impression is that anger directed towards God would certainly be blasphemy and/or heresy. How can you be angry with you Divine Creator? Your loving Lord and Protector? Certainly, if you have perceived cause to be angry with God, it isn’t his fault but yours? At least, this is what I was always told.
That’s no joke!
I look forward to it.
Thanks. I don’t think anybody will flame you. I see a Christian praying for me to be equivalent to somebody wishing me luck. I don’t have much use for luck, but I won’t get mind if somebody wishes me good luck. Know what I mean?
Again, I appreciate your concern for my well-being. If nothing else, I can say many Christians are good people when faced with human suffering.
You’re welcome. I am glad to be thought provoking.
Osu!
Jeffery:
Sure, that makes sense. I would expect somebody to grow stronger and closer to God as time passes.
If I tie this to the discussion at hand, are you suggesting that I didn’t hear God because I hadn’t known Him long enough? Under the circumstances, I suspect that despite any faults on my end, God could punch through them. This really leads back to the original question, why didn’t He?
If you are saying God tried to contact me but I couldn’t hear Him, didn’t God know that? Didn’t He know I wouldn’t hear Him?
If I extend the reasoning, I think I am safe in concluding, God tried to contact me, but only “half way” (or some percentage). He expected me to go the other half. Okay, no problem, under normal circumstances, but under those circumstances it bears resemblance to weasalness.
Honestly, it does and is. But it is the truth. I cannot deny the truth. I must follow its course to the end. Delusion is the killer. Delusion is the destroyer. I cannot accept delusion as a part of me. If I have a corrupt core, so be it, but I must know it, so that I can account for it, adjust for it, correct it. To do otherwise, is to wait for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. That is not acceptable, in my view.
Yes, very clear. I would say the answer to that is no. Unless you count “Please God forgive me for whatever I have done. I regret it with all my heart. Please forgive me.” Not quite the same, but pretty close.
Jeffery, I appreciate the time you have invested in this thread. I hope I am not too frustrating for you. I am sure you must feel like you are banging you head against a brick wall (if I was there I could break the bricks for you).
I am curious why you think your suicide attempt is a “corrupt core”. I know some consider despair a sin; I think it is a very harmful thing but not something you should bear all the blame for. Would you blame Opalcat for her despair? Certainly your despair had a healthy shove from some very cruel people! So you found the lowest point of your life…and you decided life was worth living anyhow. What is corrupt about that? You know now that even in your darkest hour you can find the will to go on, and from your lowest point you have built yourself back up to where you are today. I think it is a great achievement, not a weakness at your heart. Why do you think it so?
The fact that you did not realize how important the event was to you is perfectly normal (not that that is likely much consolation). I’m sure it is disturbing to find out your motivations are not quite what you thought they were, but now you do know; and as I said, I do not see why your suicide attempt is evidence of corruption.
I would really like to share some things with… but they are EXTREMELY long. I don’t really have a problem posting them here other than the length. Would you mind if I emailed them to you? I guess if no one has a problem with the length, I could post them here.
In short, I can be angry because I just don’t understand, and it frustrates the hell out of me. I don’t know that there is a “who’s at fault here”. It just is. And since I am the one being emotional here, yeah, it is my doing. Is it blasphemy? hmmm… no… I don’t think so.
I was thinking and praying on the way home… a dangerous combination as I don’t remember about 2/3rds of the drive home.
I was wondering something… and I hope no one takes offense to the questions. I will answer the questions in reverse myself later.
For the atheists out there… if you were to have something happen that suddenly just made you believe… How would you reconcile this in your life? I know Glitch has said that it would hurt him to find God as he believes that God abandoned him back when he tried to commit suicide. What about the other people in your life and here on the boards? Would it matter to you what they thought of your conversion and belief? In what other ways do you think it may affect your life? (or is it effect? dern grammar teachers)
I am curious… I have thought about this in reverse myself. I honestly think that if I were to suddenly or gradually come to denounce God, my atheist husband would lose respect for me. I think I would feel more alone in some ways, and independent in others. And … on a humorous note… people would wonder about me since I tend to pray outloud, they would wonder why I still talked to myself My family and co-workers don’t really know that I am back with God… soo… I don’t know that they would know the difference. Yes… I said back with God. For 5 years, I went without wanting to talk to God, I didn’t want to believe that He existed. The Christians I had known were hypocrites in my mind (I don’t know if they were or not, but that is my hindsight perception of them now.) I was angry… downright pissed off… at God… and with organized religion… and with some Christians, and I wanted nothing to do with any of them anymore. So, I guess in a sense… I tried to be an atheist. Is that off the mark? I mean no offense in the statement.
I have only been “back with God” for about 3 months now. My husband doesn’t know what to make of it, but he sees the effects it has had in my life, both positive and negative in his eyes.
Ya know… I had no idea what I was going to type when I sat down. Sorry if I babbled.
