Okay, let’s try that again.
I think feelings are subjective, not objective.
I now understand more of why Glitch feels that the god who evidently didn’t intercede when he attempted suicide has to have the characteristics of the Divine Weasel. I don’t have any insight to share on that right now, but felt it was important to state that I do understand.
Frankly, the idea scares me. I’ve never been a Jonathan Edwards fan. (“He can’t even run his own church; I’ll be damned if he runs mine!” ;))
I’ve never felt (as an adult) that God gets upset with valid anger – the feeling that while He’s doing what He wists for His inscrutable reasons, there are people I care about hurting (maybe me) because of it. Could you as a loving parent be seriously upset with a child who alleges that your decision, made in the interests of prudence, safety, and the child’s long-range interests, is totally unfair? I couldn’t.
Glitch, I understand where you are coming from on your view of God. To be perfectly honest, I am not sure what to say. You believed He was there. You asked him for a message. You believe that he did not give you one. That he did not even try to stop you from what you were doing. I do not know why God does what he does or does not do. I know that he could have communicated with you in a profound manner, but I still wonder how your continued reaction of that would be. That is would you have begun to wonder was what happened to you a stress induced state. That you were asking for a word from God so your brain fabricated one in an act of self defense. Sure maybe at first it would have been real, but over time it might have become to seem like a dream. Then maybe you ask for other signs or if you feel that God is not answering in the way you expect that it is time to pull out the sword again. But in the end I do not know.
Glitch, you do not frustrate me. My lack of being able to get you to see what I see, about yourself and about God is what frustrates me. It is not to do with you, but with the limitations of this form of communication and with my limitations of my knowledge of God. Glitch I will continue to walk with you through this journey as long as you are interested.
I agree with Gaudere that eventhough this was a painful time in your life. It does not make you corrupt. You are a good person. You have a caring heart. You are the closest thing to a real Klingon I have ever met (believe me that is a compliment). You seem to be one that would rather die with honor and dignity than live in shame and disgrace. Use that pain to become a better person, but do not feel that it makes you corrupt.
Jeffery
I still say feelings are subjective.
Suppose you squinted real hard, and loved me with all your might. What would I have to do on my end to feel your love? And if you forced me to feel it against my will, what sort of free moral agent would that make me?
Gaudere:
I hold myself, and only myself, to a very high standard. Suicide, as anything other than an act of defiance to one’s master (an outdated custom, that I don’t really hold myself to), is not honorable. I believe that a person’s core (or foundation for another word) being will show itself throughout the rest of a person’s principles. Suicide is my foundation.
[quote[Would you blame Opalcat for her despair?[/quote]
No.
Personal strength and ethics come from within. I should have ignored them as irrelevent. I should have been stronger in spirit. I allowed myself to become weak. It is like Oyama said “In order to boil water, you need to apply fire. If you stop applying fire, then the water will stop boiling. Only by continuing to apply fire can you keep the water boiling.” I stopped applying fire.
The fact that suicide was what made me really come to realize all that, instead of realizing all of this the proper way corrupts the foundation.
Beth/bigred:
Feel free to email me anytime. That goes to anybody.
You wonderful theists, have already provided that answer. Simply put, it was time.
Also, I do believe that the existence of God would be a diminishing effect on the human struggle for strength. I thought about that last night, and I do believe that I was correct in stating that in “The Atheist Religon Part 2”.
That sounds accurate to me. Did you ever stop believing? Do you think you at least reached an agnostic state, i.e. "I don’t care "OR “It is impossible to know”?
Thanks Polycarp. That’s make me feeling better that I am not completely crazy.
Thank you as well, Jeffery.
I agree that this explanation has a lot of validity and reason to it, but … well, see below.
I am glad, I don’t want to drive anybody nuts. 
We got enough crazies on this board as it is.
You know, the batleth (sp?) is probably the best sci-fi weapon I have ever seen. I think it really would be very effective in battle. I wonder how they thought of it.
So, I spent last night thinking (got a call from my good friend and senior instructor too, he was worried about his poor old shihan… according to him, everybody can tell when I am in a bad mood, because I make them do lots of push-ups… I swear I am an open book!).
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I spent some time reviewing my internal principles to make sure they were still sound. And I am pleased to say that they are. I am not happy about the foundation, but sound principles are sound principles. In fact, I can make more sense of them knowing the true foundation. The Creation Principle, for example, never really seemed to flow entirely perfectly from Spirit of Osu!, now it makes more sense with a suicide foundation.
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Then it was on too the two key questions of the hour:
#1) Do I want to believe?
#2) Should I be making an independent effort? Have I made an independent effort in the past?
So, #1, I felt like a yo-yo last night. Yes, I want to believe, No, I don’t, Yes, No, Yes, well you get the idea.
More later… to be continued.
Glitch, I guess my musings are sort of directed toward you. What’s your take?
I may have to leave again if the demo crashes, sorry to post in chunks.
#1) Do I want to believe?
The question really boils down to this. Why do I bother making these attempt to find God? That by itself suggests heavily that I do want to believe. I mean pursuing for the sake of personal honesty is fine, but it seems a bit weak. Afterall, I don’t pursue every little tiny thing of which there may be some doubt, so why this? Well, I could argue (and did) that God is hardly a little tiny thing. He is rather a big deal, in the scheme of things.
Also, I feel great frustration when these attempts fail. I sometimes really break down (like last night, see below). Not exactly, a reaction I would expect from somebody pursuing for purely personal honesty reasons. It isn’t like a put a QED at the end, and that’s that.
Okay, so for now, it seems you folks are correct, and I want to believe.
#2) That being the case, should I be making an independent effort, as suggested.
The answer is trivially, yes.
So, last night I just lay down on the floor, and did nothing but tried to talk to God for about an hour. I explained to Him everything that I feel and I asked Him some questions. I believe in my sincerity; however, I think there is a lot of doubt as to whether I believe He would truly answer, or even that He was truly there. Needless to say, I didn’t get any kind of impression that God was with me. I felt alone again, and depressed. I shed some tears, mainly out of frustration.
I cannot open myself up like I did before. God must know this. I can’t believe in Him as a first step anymore. It just isn’t in me. God must know this. I grow more convinced that He isn’t listening. How long before the door is closed completely? I think in fairness to myself, I have to accept a certain number of failures as proof positive. This latest batch, and the distress I am under is convincing me that the number is fast approaching. I know all of you think I am strong, and I am. But I only have finite strength, and finite capabilties. I think they have been stretched to the maximum. Last night, as usual, was very trying. I always seem to come up worse for trying than not trying. Very frustrating, and very painful. I find myself wishing more and more to escape myself. I find that very scary, because I do not want to become convinced that I should escape myself, because either I know what that means or I don’t. I.e. I have a good idea what that means, and that possibility scare the crap out of me, but it what scares me more is if I am wrong and means something much worse. Again, I have the capability to face fear, but it is only finite. I know it is wrong to speak for God, but boy now would be a really good time for Him to use some of that omnipotence of His, because I really don’t seem myself going anywhere with this.
Your implication is that I didn’t want to feel His love, which I believe is incorrect. I am sure I did. You have made the claim that I was deafened by my own misery. Okay, but that doesn’t change that I did want to, there is no free will violation. In light of my free desire to feel His love if He wanted to offer it, I think He could have (and should have) overpowered my misery.
This does raise the problem Jeffery points out, that in the long term I may have eventually shuffled it off as internal self preservation.
The issue then with Jeffery’s point is, it doesn’t account for the times after where I wasn’t blinded by self preservation.
I.e. to state the sequence of events and fact.
- You need to have sincere belief in order to contact and received the Holy Spirit from God.
- I did, in fact, have that sincere belief at the time.
- However, I couldn’t receive the Holy Spirit (or any other sign) because I would discount it later as self induced illusion.
- The near suicide has left me with sincere belief, or the capability to generate it. I can generate sincerity, but not belief. Sincerity is insufficient.
- Catch-22. I cannot reach God because I lack what it takes (#1). I cannot have what it takes because of #4.
I extend this then to:
- God has it in His power to understand #4, and in understanding that adjust the requirements of #1. Afterall, as you put it, if He allowed me to renounce Him in order to preserve my life, it would seem reasonable to assume that He left a way back in. That way cannot possibly be sincere belief, because that evaporated forever (trust me it is gone), with renouncing God.
So, in light of #6, what do you suppose the way back in is? Any scriptural evidence?
#6 obviously assumes a non-Divine Weasal and a non-Divine Me.
“The Divine Weasal” could just as easily say “Sure, go ahead renounce me if it’ll make you feel better, but see if I let you back in later.”
“The Divine Me” would say “Sure, go ahead renounce me, that’s what I wanted you to do all along. Please don’t come back, I love you too much for you to believe in me”
No, it is the God of Lib, Poly, Jeff, and others that would leave the way back in. Is that sensible?
This passage lends credence that the God of Lib, Poly, Jeff, and others (and me), is the God with point #6.
Very much so, Glitch. And I feel that he has.
I am going on the basis of a leading, a hunch, rather than any serious point to consciously make here, but I’ve felt led to post a quotation from Paul Simon’s “Kathy’s Song” at this point:
Ummm … anybody have some non-cryptic answers? I mean, geez, I though Mr. Miyagi (Karate Kid) was bad!
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Patience… reminds me a joke (from a comedy skit “Tae Kwon Leap”:
Scene inside a dojo. A new white belt confronts the instructor:
WB: “Hey, teacher, when do some fancy moves?”
Instructor: “No, you don’t understand. To a true student a year is as a day.”
WB: “A year? I want to beat people up right now.”
Instructor: “Beat people up? Tae Kwon Leap is the wine of peace, not the vinegar of hostility. To truly master Tae Kwon Leap you must have learn patience.”
WB: “Patience? Okay, how long will that take?”
I love that line.
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Hmm… actually now that I re-read it and the two answers. Maybe my queston was unclear.
I am wondering what you think the way back in might be, not whether or not He allows a way back in. Sorry for the confusion.
If we exclude sincere belief (and the consensus seems to be that this is what is necessary), what’s left? Any backdoors anybody knows about?
“What is the sound of one God clapping?” 
I need to revert to St. Paul here and simply say that the answer is Grace. It’s God’s move. Glitch is not the actor, he is the recipient. What Glitch needs to do is to be open to the outpouring of God’s grace. This is not as easy as it sounds. Note Glitch’s problem, previously posted, with the mere existence of God and his personal Osu! philosophy. Sometimes the hardest thing one can do (as I know from personal experience) is to accept a freely given gift graciously.
Anything that follows on this must await it, and build on it, and will flow naturally from it.
At least, that’s my $.10 on the subject.
I don’t understand how “Grace of God” is fundamentally different from sincere belief? Would I need to sincerely believe I was going to receive the gift in order to receive it? Can you clarify that for me.
If I assume that sincere belief is not required than I am confused, lots of posts here (and lots of people have told me), that you have to taken some action to receive God into your heart. But now, you are saying that I don’t have to do anything? When God feels like He’ll just do it. Does this apply only to those who have lost the capability to believe, or is the route open to anybody?
points up (heh, go figure that one out, Manyfish, I’ll fill you in later if you have never heard of it before)
I was just eating an apple (much of which is now resident on my screen) when I read your post! 
Grace is his gift. You do not need to lift yourself by your bootstraps, whether they be made of good works or the finest quality, sincerest belief. His job. Not yours. Relax and listen. If he wants to speak, he will. The odd part is that in my experience, he is as apt to speak through, say, slythe (who would categorically deny being his voice) as through any genu-wine Chris-chun outlet. “God is an iron” - Spider Robinson. (Spider explains that an “iron” is one who practices irony.)
Glitch:
I really like the way you parse and list things. It facilitates understanding of the points you make. Would you mind taking apart this almost bizarre passage from John 6, and giving it your analysis complete with block quotes and all?
It takes place just immediately after the loaves and fishes miracle. Okay, ready? This is pretty strange sounding stuff on its surface.
When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
“Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
[Editorial note: Remember, they all had just seen an incredible miracle.]
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
“Sir,” they said, “from now on give us this bread.”
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
At this the [Pharisees] began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, `I came down from heaven’?”
“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
"I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Then the [Pharisees] began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
"For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
“This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”
He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
Well?
Glitch let me tell you how I perceive you. Please tell me where I am wrong.
I see you as an intelligent man (game designers and the like cannot be stupid). You are one who uses logic in most areas of your life. Logic works to bring order to the chaos that surrounds us all. You believe in yourself and you work to acheive your goals. You do not easily rely on others. I am sure you trust your wife and some co-workers. You have begun to develop a trust with those on this board and have begun to open up accordingly. But still you realize that “If you want it done right, then do it yourself.” is very true. You have accomplished a lot in the area of martial arts due to your internal and external strength. No one has given you what you have you have worked your butt off to get it.
Am I far off? Truthfully we could use more people like you. Nothing I have said is a bad thing, IMHO.
Now, how does that play into this. God is not a formula or an algorithm. He cannot be explained with logic. Atheists likely see this as one of the big problems with a belief in God and find theists to be fools accordingly.
How do you find God within the framework you mention? There is no back door. There is no secret incantation. Unlike Karate, where you can practice a form until it is perfect, you cannot practice anything too perfection with God. Take a bible (preferrably a modern english translation, I prefer NIV) open it to a random passage. Pray that God would help you to understand what you are about to read. Then read a few verses. Just read what seems to go together. Then meditate on it. See what it says to you. As Lib says the Book of John is a great course on Chritianity. Don’t get discouraged. Fine, do not give him your full belief, but believe that you can get something out of what you read. Don’t pray and expect God to just fill you with lots of new knowledge. But just getting quiet and talking to him is a great start. Now as you talk think about what you have read. Talk to him about that as well. Tell him what it says to you. As you talk see if more things come to mind as to the possible meanings of what you have read.
If you indeed decide to embark on this journey, then you will have my support as well as (I am sure) the continued support of Poly and Lib and others. If you want to take a day or two off and not even ponder these things and then get into it fine. Just try to not get frustrated, but just act like you are talking to a friend in another room, just not loudly.
You are in my prayers.
Jeffery
For those wondering. I am sure you have all heard the famous koan “What is the sound of one hand clapping?”
Well, perhaps the most famous reply was a zen student in feudal Japan. It is recounted in “Three Zen Masters”, which unfortunately I loaned to a student so I don’t have it right now.
Anyway, this zen student went to his master and asked him something, IIRC, it was “How does one become a zen master?”
The master replied “When you can answer this you will be a zen master, what is the sound of one hand clapping?”
The student left. He came back and said “Heaven, master”. The master shook his head no.
The student left. He came back and gave another answer. The master shook his head no.
He left and returned one more time. He pointed up. The master gave him a certificate of zen mastery.
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Lib, lots of stuff to read and analyze. I will reply tonight, or later today time permitting.
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Jeff, you are very wise. I think your explanation is great. Thank you. I won’t say I understand completely. Christian philosophy seems to be very contradictive, at least from my perspective.
All can feel free to ignore this and go on with the regular conversations that are going on… I just saw this and it reminded me of something I read in the Bible that I had, and quite possible might still have, a problem with. Glitch said
Genesis 11:6 says
Why is that a bad thing? If we could all work together, we could do anything. Even God has admitted to such. Mankind has been struggling to unite ever since God separated us. So why did He do it? Why did He throw us apart when we were coming together, just so we could fight to undo what He did for so long? Then I have to look at what man was doing when God separated them. They were building a monument to their own greatness, instead of witnessing God’s greatness in allowing them to be together to start with. In a way, it ties in with Satan’s (Brian’s) demand that if you thank God when something happens, you have to be willing to blame Him when something good doesn’t happen. Because the people of Babylon weren’t recognizing God as the root of their unity and their ability to do the great things they were doing, God threw them into confusion and separated them.
Before I start rambling too much, I’ll try to pull this back in… I can see how the acceptance of God might lead you to think that your struggle for strength would be diminished. But it’s not. In a way, it’s a lot like lifting weights. You do all the work, but you know that your muscles wouldn’t be receiving the same benefit if you were just lifting the bar without the weights. God is like the weights. You have to struggle every day to become stronger, but you know that God is what makes you stronger. Does that make any sense?? I think I’ve managed to confuse even myself. Ok, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to try to hijack the thread or anything… I’ll go and lurk some more now.
Lib, It is pretty strange passage. I am not exactly sure in what context to analyze it. What it means at a basic level seems pretty straightforward, that you have to come to Jesus to get to God. The cornerstone of Christianity.