Could you please keep yer mitts off my new puppy?

The BBQ Pit
61

Beagle, thanks. I’ll put your suggestions to use right away, not only do they make a lot of sense but they are also very straight forward. Thing is, I’ve been reading so much stuff on puppy training that it gets confusing.

One more question if I may. The teething and constant play-biting, doesn’t bother me much. In fact, she’s learned to stop when I tell her to. But she’s not listening half as well to other members of the “pack.” And I’ll note that she doesn’t play bite with strangers – not shy with them, just quietly reserved. Suggestions?

Gaspode,

I was well aware of tail docking prior to getting Silky, what I didn’t know, was just how downright freaking cruel the ear cropping business is! I only investigated it after the vet offered to do it. It takes something in the order of four to five months for the ear cartilage to harden, and for all that time they have to wear tape-wrapped posts (tampons, cut to size) in their ears.

Freaking amazing. Basically their whole “puppyhood” is spent healing their ears.
PS-Alice, pardon the hijack. Would you rather we carried this convo in a thread set up for it or do you find it of interest/somewhat pertinent as well?

62

Hmm…seems like you pre-empted my last query, Beagle. What, you train dogs and mind-read on the side? :wink:

Thanks again!

63

No problem, RedFury.

Actually, now that you mention it, there is one more thing – play biting in puppies is natural and important for their development. If you don’t let them bite you, a very good idea, just say “no biting” and stuff a toy in their mouth. This is the hardest thing to break them of and you must be patient to a point unless they are really biting you.

Serious dominance-challenging snarling, growling, hard snapping cannot ever be tolerated in any dog. You have to be able to cure them of that if they ever develop it. Or, let your dog bite you at will. That won’t work either, because the dog will end up getting put down when it bites someone else.

64

Upon, ahem, re-reading some key parts of this thread.

Red Fury, given that she is a dobie, I would work on tug toys to get out the biting aggression. I would never, ever let her bite humans even playfully as a puppy. Fergoodnessake don’t let anyone play rough with her with their hands. With my shepherd I had a no bite policy in place from day one. I had a small army of dog toys which she destroyed one by one. Bought more, same thing. I bought one of those “Galileo” bones. She’s having a tough time destroying that one. Only a few deep scratches so far.

Again, importantly, just say “no biting” softly and offer her a toy. Play with her until the biting stuff is worked out. Big dogs have large biting needs. Prepare to buy the largest nylabones, giant rubber bones, tug toys, squeak toys by the dozens, and more.

OTOH, tennis balls are better than most anything. Also, FREE STUFF: use old one gallon water or milk jugs. Two liter bottles kick ass. At her size, just rinse out a 12 ounce plastic bottle. New toy with every soft drink purchase. Plastic one gallon milk caps are fascinating to puppies. They bat them around like hockey pucks.

65

They don’t neuter dogs in Sweden, Gaspode? Outlawing tail docking and ear cropping makes total sense, but I thought that neutering was the responsible thing to do with any animal that you didn’t plan to breed.

66

Humm - you better believe that Voltaire will be getting a hoo-ha-ectomy as soon as he’s old enough.

I’m really not interested in him humping either me or my guests, regardless of if it’s “natural”.

67

Oh, Lord, you had to get me started up about the spay/neuter thing, didn’t you? Surgical sterilization is one of the most important steps you can take to safeguard your pet’s health. It prevents all sorts of very serious health problems that can kill your pet. Dystocia, pyometra, ovarian and uterine cancers, mammary tumors, testicular cancer, prostatitis, and various urinary tract problems. We have a dog in our hospital right now who nearly ruptured his bladder because his prostate and epidydimus were so enlarged he couldn’t pee. If he’d been neutered 10 years ago, he wouldn’t have had that problem.

I don’t even want to think of the animals that haven’t pulled through emergency c-sections (with unwanted puppies, to boot) or pyometras. It’s too damn depressing.

Neutering your pet isn’t cruel or useless; it’s the responsible action of a loving friend.

68

No, they don’t. Some vets think more dogs should be neutered, others are against it. It’s illegal in Norway.

My dog is very much a pedigree and I will use him for breeding, baring complications with the hips. Neutering a male dog will lead it to be submissive and prone to overweight. It’s easier with a bitch, where you can give it injections and stop, if the owner wants more puppies.

Of course, neutering affects the mentality of the dog too. I don’t want a dog who’s just sleeping all day. I actually don’t know any dog owner who’s had the dog neutered.

69

Ooooh, you in trouble now, mister. All of y’all dog-lovin’ Dopers, now, let’s not make mincemeat of this poor deluded European, at least not without eddicatin’ him first.

Here in the States, where neutering is sometimes required by local law if you don’t get a special permit or license for a breeding dog, we know that what you’ve said above is myth. (Most of us, including me, with male dogs have neutered ones.) The only part that has any basis in reality is the “Neutering a male dog will lead it to be submissive” part – and that’s actually backwards. NOT neutering a male dog may lead to his getting more aggressive on you, especially if you block his access to desired females or his roaming to find them, but neutering will not make him more submissive. It certainly will not make him overweight. Dogs get overweight when they eat more calories than they burn, no matter what their breeding status (muck like people and other animals). If you depend on an intact male’s breeding and roaming activities to keep him exercised, then neutering him might lead to his gaining weight – but I don’t think that’s a responsible exercise program for any pet.

70

Fine. You do have a point, about restricting food and giving proper exercise. However, if I can’t controll my dog, without neutering him, then I shouldn’t own a doggie. That’s my POV.
The fact that neutering dogs is illegal in Norway (except for special medical circumstances), leads me to think that there are very big cultural differences at work here. I refuse to beleive that vets in Norway have a substandard education.
I’m sorry, emilyforce, but knowing that puppies in the US are taken from their moms at 5 weeks and sold in pet stores, doesn’t give me a whole lot of faith in how things are done over on your side of the pond.
Male dogs here don’t get very aggressive, unless they’re bred for it. We, of course, have the debate about pitbulls and their cousins, but all responsible kennels bred away aggressive behaviour and that sharpness you find in certain fighting dogs.
I can understand neutering (male) cats who will only be indoors and female felines who will be let outdoors. I don’t like it, but I understand it. With dogs, I feel there is no reason whatsoever.

71

Hey, good for you! I don’t believe in that, either. (I also don’t believe in declawing cats. Spaying/neutering is a good thing, though.)

In Norway, is it also illegal to fix cats? Or is it just dogs? If fixing cats is illegal, are cats allowed outdoors?

72

The Gaspode, puppy mill puppies are a whole other ball of wax. Responsible breeders do not separate pups from their mothers that early. Hell, the center I used to volunteer for wouldn’t even LIST puppies until they were three to four months old.

That said, I’m wondering if a) I can get a citation on Spay/neuter being illegal in Norway and b) if Norway has the kind of problems with pet overpopulation and/or feral domestic animals that many places in the US do. Or, for that matter, if any of the European countries do.

Certainly my parents’ dogs, who are spayed and neutered, show no particular negative effects, except that they won’t be breeding. The boy dog is exactly where he should be, weight-wise, and he’s not submissive (except to his humans), and he does not sleep all the time. The girl dog is a little tub, but then she always has been (she walks ± 5 miles/day, and has the run of the back yard when they’re not at home, so this is not a dog who lacks for exercise).

Both dogs are rescues, abandoned and/or neglected/abused by previous owners.

73

On the topic of whether spaying/neutering is legal in Norway, I found an article saying that it used to be illegal but is now permitted in some cases:

http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998%20issues/dec_bu_98/culture.htm

Relevant quote:

74

Gaspode - where did you learn that

Don’t take my word for it. Work it out for yourself: Use the internet to find the number of pet stores in an American city (just pick one from a yellow pages site), look up the number of Petco and Petsmart stores in that city (these shops sell dog food, but not dogs), then see if you think that all those Petco and Petsmart stores would be necessary if we could only get our puppies from pet stores, after they’d been taken from their moms at five weeks.

No aggresive dogs? Call the Swedish or Norwegian health care system and ask about dog bit statistics. Additionally, Both the Norway and Sweden (especially) have some wonderful schutzhund clubs. Dogs trained for schutzhund trials are not vicious or dangerous, but they are aggressive and sharp and bred by responsible kennels.

http://w1.545.telia.com/~u54510416/

http://home3.swipnet.se/~w-35012/page8.htm

http://home.no.net/trevi/

http://home.online.no/~emtjahns/kennelnangijala.htm

SisterCoyote -There are some not-particularly-authoritative web sites that mention this ban, and some that mention a ban on pit bulls. They do have an animal shelter - http://www.dooa.no/ - so it seems not all the puppies and kittens are finding good homes.

But that’s not why I’m here. I must confess. Today, I picked up someone else’s dog. Yes, I did. I held it in my arms. Carried it, even. Did I ask the owner? No, he was nowhere around - he lives a couple of blocks north of me.

As you’ve guessed by now, his entirely untrained pup was loose, without out a collar, and running erratically in the street.

75

On the topic of whether spaying/neutering is legal in Norway, I found an article saying that it used to be illegal but is now permitted in some cases:

http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998%20issues/dec_bu_98/culture.htm

Relevant quote:

76

Good stuff again, Beagle. Sorry I took so long to respond but I didn’t see the thread on the front page and I assumed there were no new posts.

First, I’d like to report back that Silky, in slighty less than 48 hours since I took your advice, is now sitting on command prior to getting her meals. It’s touch and go at other times, but she seems well on her way. So that worked beautifully.

Second, I am a bit confused as to the play biting business. As I tried to explain, I personally didn’t mind the play biting, since I felt I could pretty much control it and/or stop it when I wanted to – and yes, I did play a bit rough with her at times. :::hangs head in shame::: But seeing that other members of the household didn’t have the same success, that she just kept going, I felt there was a need to put an end to it. So for the past few days (2 or 3, she’s only been with me for two weeks) I’ve been using the toy substitution method and I’ve also incorporated a the muzzle clamp and pin you suggested. I only use this method when she gets so overly excited that she’s really not paying any attention and grabs toy/hand/toes indiscriminately. It does produce the desired effect, as she eventually calms down. I’ve also read that grabbing them by the skinfold in the back of the neck and shaking them a bit (as done by the Mothers in the litter) works as well. What do you think?

I really, really want to do this right. I realize she’s a Dobe and what’s playful now will be downright dangerous just down the line. On top of which, she’s being raised to be a companion dog first and foremost. Not really interested in her Guard Dog abilities beyond what nature’s already given her.

As for the tug toys, is it OK to play Tug-of-war with her? I’ve read that it could potentially increase their agression. OTOH, I can plainly see that it’s one of her favorite games (and mine too!). We do it with all sorts of stuff – it was a soft leafy branch she found in the yard today.

Thanks for the tips on homemade toys. She’ll have a bunch of them by tomorrow to add to her ever-growing collection – tennis ball already included BTW. Hopefully, she’ll like them as much as my old, and by now, very beat up right flip-flop :wink:

Anyway, appreciate all the help. We both do actually, since I am sure there’s nothing Silky wants more than to become the best daughter I never had!

I owe you a beer or ten and a tasty tropical bone for your doggie-bag if you’re ever down my way.

plain_jane,

Agree with you on the spaying business. I think it’s a good thing for all involved. I am not even remotely interested in breeding, and secondly, there are enough pets ending up in the street as it is. Never mind all the health problems already mentioned.

77

Some quick notes before the board shuts down for its daily backup. Thanks to MsWhatsIt for finding a cite in English, I only had it in Norwegian.
As for aggressive dogs, as stated earlier, we do have that media frenzy about fighting dogs, and yes it’s a real problem too. However, those people who want that from their dogs will not neuter them anyway. Responsible dog owners don’t neuter, because they will not have a problem with the dogs.
In re: the puppie mills. Of course I realize that not all, or even the majority of dogs in the US are sold that way. That it even exists is appalling, though.
And finally, feral dogs are un-known here.

78

It sounds like you are doing it right RedFury. The simple rule of thumb is: use the least force you can use to modify the particular behavior. If the young dog gives me a token growl when I pick her up I’ll just gently cup her muzzle and say, “no growling at dad” a couple times. They get it.

Minimal force always. You have to be able to judge when your dog is overplaying versus actually getting mean. Some dogs can turn in an instant. OTOH, these behaviors can be dealt with if you establish yourself as the benevolent philosopher king paternal figure / dictator over your dog. You only turn dictator when your dominance is really at stake. Believe me, you’ll know.

It’s OK that you played rough before. Just stop doing it now and forever without grabbing something made out of rope, rubber, or plastic. No more human flesh.

Believe me, you’ll thank me later. You think the pointy little puppy teeth are bad? Check out the teeth on my shepherd biting that basketball “bballdie.jpg.” That did have air in it until that bite. Always make a big deal out of giving the dog any new object. Take it back, throw it, take it back, play keep away, etc. Don’t let your dog think she can keep any object from you.

Also, make sure you can stand near your dog while she’s eating NOW, before she gets older. No territoriality over food is allowed where the humans are concerned. OTOH, I don’t take their food for no reason. Maybe if I forgot to add whatever. Just stand there and pet the dog while it eats. If it growls, snout.

Most important of all, socalize your dog with other dogs and people as much as possible without running into the problems in the OP – which is really hard with cute little puppies. Once my shepherd hit six months she was so tall people called her a “he.” They haven’t stopped until today. She’s a gender bender, I guess. Point being, nobody ever tried to pick her up. She weighed 20 lbs when we got her.

79

As for tug toys other than the general paragraph on rough playing. That wasn’t very clear.

My young beagle I call a “pit beagle.” Why? Well, I can swing her in the air by her jaws. I know, that’s bad. Whatever. Just be careful and don’t do it before you merely lift the dog in the air a few inches a hundred dozen times. Then, don’t do it too quickly ever. She has ALL her teeth. I would NOT DO THIS WITH ANY LARGE DOG, BTW – [sub]though I’ve seen lots of them that live for it[/sub]. The tooth size to weight ratio is not as good.

Anyway, she loves it and is the friendliest dog in the world – tied with all the other beagles.

I think dogs find the human - object distinction very easy to learn if you are consistent.

80

Guess what? One more, more, more thing, et al, etc.:
When I chase my shepherd I do grab her by her back haunches to make her drop (object). I just let go when she drops it. It’s like ritualistic fighting in the extreme. She doesn’t bite me, and I rarely catch her.

She will “leave it,” “stop,” “sit,” or “lie down” once I get sick of – and actually do – stop chasing her. Mixed signals confuse dogs. I have to admit that she’s faster than me – she knows it, I know it. You must work around that with big dogs early or you’ll forever be chasing them.