You calling 51% a landslide? A mandate? Look, this kind of stuff doesn’t reflect credibly on your intelligence or your veracity. It’s OK to say Bush won by a majority, but any attempt to cast it as anything other than a razor-thin, narrow majority is just bullshit and everyone is gonna see it that way.
No, you are wrong in that you are attempting to turn Bush’s win into some sweeping statement on the true nature of the nation as a whole.
Simply isn’t justified.
Hell, your generalization isn’t even justified about Bush supporters.
I’d quibble with that.
There is something very wrong in our country, but there is not something wrong with our country.
I would simply argue that noncomparative giving statistics do not necessarily disprove the assertion that the US is “a country driven by selfishness and hate”, especially if US giving is disproportionally low and politically motivated. Of course, nothing Muffin said particularly proves his assertion, either. There are certainly US policy outcomes that appear to be greedy and hateful, but whether or not they were “driven” by it is a different order of claim altogether.
This seems out of place in a discussion like this, so I’ll take your point and trouble you no further.
You’re no trouble, Maeglin. You and I are old-timers who go way back. If Featherlou’s ridiculous accusation had not included the “majority of Americans”, but only dwelled on government as you are doing, fair game. But the statistics show that almost 90% of US households contribute to charity. They donate billions of hours of volunteer work. And a huge amount of money is donated privately to foreign countries. How these people can be characterized as selfish and greedy is beyond bizarre.
As my original assertion has generated animosity way out of proportion with my intent, please allow me to clarify some points.
When I referred to greed, I was referring to Capitalism. I thought that was obvious, but apparently not. I don’t like Capitalism. I think it has caused a lot of damage.
I assumed that a majority of U.S. Citizens are Capitalists. If this assumption is wrong, please educate me.
I do not exclude Canada or Canadians from being motivated by Capitalism. In my opinion, it is a problem here too.
Just out off curiosity, what does one actually have to do to be a capitalist in your world?
What you have to realize Featherlou is a lot of Dopers are not just capitalists, they’re Free Market capitalists, who worship the Free Market with cultlike intensity. I mean, they’d cheer the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace even if they caught it strangling babies, um, red-handed. Gonna stir up some opposition when you challenge thier assumption that greed is good.
Fair enough. I see that your original response was to Muffin, however. Featherlou did not unload her assertion about the majority of Americans until after the fracas began.
I do, for the record, agree that the idea that a majority of Americans are somehow “motivated” by greed and hate to be absurd. The aggregation of the behavior of large numbers of well-meaning people often has outcomes that smack of hatred, greed, and absurdity, however.
I don’t find it absurd at all. Americans are generally a greedy bunch who love their material possessions and do ya think that stuff about gay marriage was about anything but hatred and bigotry?
Greed and bigotry as American traits … yeah, works for me. We have other traits, too, but man, we gotta struggle with those two a lot.
You aren’t a person who grapples much with the problems of inferring preferences from observed behavior, are you?
Had you said “51% of the American electorate voted in support of…” I could have agreed with you.
I’ll try my darndest.
Most U.S. citizens, like the citizens of every other country that has ever existed in the history of the world, are working joes just trying to improve their lot in life and that of their family. Their primary concerns in life are staying healthy, maintaining a home, feeding themselves, taking care of their loved ones and engaging in some fun and entertainment. I’ve actually met some of them, and you know what? They’re pretty decent folks. In fact, they’re just like Canadians. I’ve met and worked with thousands of them. You know what? I’ve met people from England, and India, and Canada, and Iran, and Colombia, and Panama, and the United States, and many other places. And they’re all pretty much the same.
I find it depressing that people in this day and age actually go around saying entire nations of people are evil and hateful and greedy. Honest to fuck, are you an actual person or some bot program based on the text of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? What’s next for you - propaganda films? Comparing Americans to rats and swine? Holding a Two Minutes Hate? This is 2004. Join us in modern times, would you? Fascism is out of style.
Unless your definition of the word “Capitalist” is so inclusive as to mean almost anyone who is not actually a member of the Communist Party, then I’d say your assumption is wrong. It’s also indicative of a genuine and profound ignorance as to what’s really important to Americans or Canadians or anyone else.
gobear - Yes, a vote for Bush is a vote for torture and war. But don’t mistake ignorance for malice. And you can’t deny ignorance was THE main reason Bush got votes.
RickJay, King of Hyperbole.
Well, I never said landslide, that’s your term. I specifically used the word majority in that post.
As far as a mandate is concerned, keep in mind that was the word Clinton used in '92 when he got, what, 44% of the vote?
Which one of us uses generalizations to slander a nation of 300 million people?
Suck it up. If you’re going to behave like a bigot, don’t be surprised when you’re treated accordingly.
Calling the majority of Citizens of the United States Capitalists is slander and bigotry? You haven’t provided any information yet that has convinced me that the majority of U.S. citizens aren’t Capitalists. We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here. You seem to think I am ignorant of the true nature of Citizens of the United States; if you have any facts that could change my opinion, trot them out already. I’m willing to be educated.
I suspect that if you want anyone to take you seriously, the burden is on you to demonstrate that that majority of US citizens are “Capitalists.” Go on, educate us.
For my part, I would love to be a Capitalist, but I make most of my money from my labor.
Yikes, where to start.
First, the burden of proof is on you.
Second, what is bigoted is for Muffin to say things like
Admittedly, you softened the rhetoric by saying
So it was less inflamatory, but still bigoted and bullshit.
Saying that the majority of citizens of the united states are capitalists assumes that instead of simply living in a capitalist economy many people actually take the principles to heart. This is a ridiculous enough idea that you don’t really expect me to tear it apart, do you?
I would note, however, that saying “Since the US is a capitalistic nation the majority of its citizens are greedy.” is indeed slander (or libel as the case would be) and bigotry.
Burden of proof.
You’ve not given a shred of data to support the claim of the ‘majority’ of Americans holding any economic ideology.
Nor have you given a shred of proof which goes to your claim that capitalist=greedy.
You are.
Um… as your opinion isn’t based on facts, what exactly can we trot out?
You’ve done no research, either sociological or statistical.
You can point to no research, either sociological or statisitcal.
And yet we must take your unfounded assertions as to the character of 300,000,000 men, women and children: Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, Satanists, Hippie Love Freaks, bussiness men and teachers, priests and soldiers, hookers and movie stars, psychiatrists and mob bosses, short order cooks and CEO’s, garbage men and little league coaches…
as desering anything other than casual derision?
Why?
See, this is a discussion, not simply pointing fingers and hurling insults. I do have reasons for my opinions; I’m at work at the moment, and don’t have time to make comprehensive arguments, but I’ll be back later.
**
I actually was making this assumption. Good point, FinnAgain.