Cousin relationships: how close is too close

This zombie thread on whether sex between adopted siblings is incest just popped up on my control panel, so I thought I’d start a someone-related thread. Here’s the sitch:

For purposes of this discussion, assume you are unmarried and unattached. Let’s say that you meet a person with whom you share an immediate and mutual attraction. You date long enough that both are you are willing to have sex. But before you do so, you discuss that you’re some variety of cousin. How close is too close for your comfort–that is, so close that you’ll have to end the romantic relationship?

And now I’ll define some terms. You may also wish to consult this wikipedia page.

First cousins are persons whose nearest common ancestor is the grandparent of both. Full first cousins share a pair of grandparents (in other words, the linking parents of the FFCs were full sublings); half first cousins share only one grandparent (that is, the linking parents were half siblings.) Double first cousins are full first cousins who share all four grandparents. Second cousins are persons whose neaarest common ancestor is the great-grandparent of both; third cousins share a great-great-grandparent; and so on. First cousins once removed do not share a grandparent; rather, one of the child of the other’s first cousin. Likewise, your second cousin once removed is the child of your second cousin, or the second cousin of your parent, and so on.

Here are some examples. Let’s say my father, Stan, married a woman named Mary, and they had me, Robert; Stan also has a child from a previous marriage, Peg. Stan’s brother Arthur married Mary’s sister Delinda; they had Sam. Mary & Delinda’s other sister, Gina, had a child named Tom. Sam and I are double first cousins; we have the same four grandparents. Tom and I are full first cousins; we share one pair of grandparents. Sam and Peg are half first cousins; they share only one grandparent. Sam’s child Yvonnne is my first cousin once removed; we don’t share any grandparents, but she is the child my first cousin (or, from her point of view, I am the first cousin of her parent). My daughter Raven is Yvonne’s second cousin; their nearest common ancestor is a great-grandparent.

To reiterate: what degree of known consanguinity is too close for your comfort?

Please assume for purposes of this thread that we’re talking only about biological relatives. Stepcousins and adopted cousins need not apply. People willing to do their siblings should open another thread on another board, preferably a board that requires posters to write in Mandarin or Sanskrit.

I wouldn’t care if they are a first cousin or not. What would be more weird to me is if we were raised together from a very young age in the same household.

If we grew up completely separate from each other and didn’t meet until adulthood, bring on the lovin’!

Anything closer than third cousins (grandparents were first cousins, if I understand correctly) is off limits, and third cousins is kinda weird. I’m pretty sensitive to this, though. My first cousin started dating her dad’s common-law-wife’s nephew, eventually falling pregnant and marrying the dude. I get a little squiffed out thinking about it, but I’m in the minority, and I accept that.

To close for reproductive procreation? Or recreational sex?

Except for dealing with the fallout from family, a first cousin wouldn’t bother me. It seems to happen a lot world wide throughout history.

You mentioned that in the linked thread, I think. Can I ask why that relationship bothers you? Your FC is not a blood relative to her husband, except in the sense that all humans are blood relatives to one another.

To your more general point: To me it’s clearer to say that third cousins share at least one and possibly two great-great-grandparents. Assuming no previous crossovers, everyone has 16 great-great-grandparents, so full third cousins would have 2 of 16 great-grandparents in common, while half third cousins would have 1 of 16.

People should feel free to answer either way, or both. Otherwise the gays and lesbians can’t play, nor the infertile straights. I thought about doing a poll with all the possibilities but then I decided that was insane.

I don’t think you’ll be getting anything resembling a rational response, considering how his explanations are not based in anything particularly factual.

Covered_In_Bees is right here. It’s a gut-level response, and not a standard I wish to impose on anyone else. I don’t really factor in genetics; the inbreeding arguments are hard to sustain empirically, and I don’t have any interest in drawing phenotypal or genotypal lines.

If you’d like a more detailed explaination as to why my cousin’s choice squicks me out, I guess I tend to think of the (admittedly idealized) family as an unconditionally safe place where one can seek refuge from the various perils of sexual relationships, specifically breakups, which I historically haven’t handled all that well. (I’ve been married twice with no kids; as of right now, I have no idea where either spouse lives.) My cousin and her husband have gotten on all right, but a messy breakup could really drive a wedge through through the family. That, and I find it easier to envision the kind of solid, last-through-anything that I feel constitute good family relations when sexual tension between cousins and what not is removed. In other words, my feelings are based on the admittedly intutitive notion that hitting on one’s cousins tends to destabilize the important social structure of the family. Call me crazy, but I really think it’s a good idea to go outside the family unit to seek a mate, regardless of genetics and such.

Note, again, that I would not ever deign to extend this view of mine beyond my own conduct and perceptions. Several states allow first-cousin marriage, and I can abide by that. Live like you want to live as long as it harms no one and makes you happy; grossing Stu out should be the least of your concerns.

I think it would have to be second cousins. Not because I find the idea of first cousins in general particularly squicky, but because I just can’t think of any of my own first cousins without twitching. (They’re all Very Nice People, but the youngest is at least 15 years older than me, and our culture/socio-economic statuses are widely divergent.)

Well, sure. The only thing is that the person described in the hypothetical clearly isn’t one of the first cousins you already know, because you only recently met then and weren’t aware of the shared ancestry at the time. They’re ruled out by the terms of the question.

StusBlues, of course you’re entitled to your opinion, and I hope I don’t come off as condescending; if I have, I should have phrased things more artfully, and I apologize. That said, doesn’t any breakup have the potential to cause problems in the extended family? When a divorce is bitter, it always divides friends and family. One of my sisters had a particularly acrimonious divorce, and as a result I and my brothers found it needful to break off friendships with her ex-husband; this causes strain for me in particular. No known consanguinity was needed for that.

2nd cousins, for similar reasons to phouka. I know my first cousins, and none of them are really the type to do that with. Let’s see:

Children of eldest uncle: both boys are drug addicts, wife beaters, and parent beaters. Not good people.
Children of next uncle: One is severely developmentally disabled. The other one is a very nice guy but there is just no attraction there at all.
Neither of the two aunts have kids. Then there is me, the child of the youngest sister, and I have two half-brothers, and that is just super squicky.

So it’s really because I know them too well. On the other hand, when I was a teen, I had a very intense crush on a second cousin, and he reciprocated. We were far too well supervised for anything to happen (otherwise who knows? We were young and full of hormones and innocent.) So the thought of second never bothered me.

ETA: Ok, it’s a first cousin I didn’t already know of? Like, if my aunt should suddenly turn up a child we never knew about? I wouldn’t have a problem with it strictly, but I’ve already burned enough bridges in my family - not willing to burn that one.

Genetically, first cousins are low risk. But double reinforced first cousins are almost like brother and sister from the heredity standpoint.

But if noone’s fertile, well heck, game on!!

In my own case, I have only one first cousin, and she’s like a stuck up, annoying little sister to me. But my wife has a busload of first cousins, and some she never met. If it was a first cousin I didn’t really have a family relationship with, and it wouldn’t cause a lot of blow back from the rest of the family, I wouldn’t be bothered by the genetics (although I’d insist on some testing before having children).

Honestly I think Covered in Bees! has the key, it’s how closely you were raised. I can’t imagine having sex with anyone that I was raised with and that includes first and second cousins with and without once removed notations who would be in the right age group.

However if I already had developed a relationship with someone and discovered later they were a first cousin I wouldn’t be bothered by that. Undiscovered sibling is apparently where my squick level lies.

Particularly in my family’s case, since the brothers in question are (were, I should say) identical twins. I think my double first cousins and I are genetically more like half-siblings.

Logically you’re probably right, though I’d wager that breaking up with your stepmom’s neice would probably be apt to cause more problems than breaking up with some chick you met on vacation in San Marino. Honestly, it’s more of a visceral thing than a logical thing. Kinda like eating bugs, protein and what not be damned.

No, I get this. I have a male and female cousin who were friends with two opposite-sex siblings from childhood. When they got to adulthood, they each fell for the opposite-sex person from the other family, and got married in a double wedding. So there is absolutely no incest involved, but their sibling’s inlaws are their own inlaws, their best friend is married to their sibling, their spouse’s sibling is their best friend… that is a lot of ways to spread drama in one part of your life throughout many other facets of it.

Thus for me, closeness of the family in question would be a huge factor. I’d have to go with second cousin at least, just because I rarely see them.

In a previous thread, someone put it thus, and it captures my feeling:

You write down your descendants, your siblings, and their direct descendants, and you write down your parents and grandparents.

The person in question does the same. If any of the names match, you just hug.

But if no names match, penis may ensue.

What if your grandfather’s name is John Smith or something? :wink:

I can tell, yer not from ‘round these parts, are ye’? :smiley: