Craps. Teach me how to bet.

Factual Questions
21

bughunter wrote:

The craps dealers don’t have any problem with someone walking up and placing a bet on the pass line after a point is made. They might snicker to themselves a little, though. It’s a sign that someone really doesn’t understand the game. They’re betting even money on something that has a probability of only 5/11, 4/10, or 3/9 (for 6 and 8, 5 and 9, and 4 and 10 respectively). Now that’s the worst bet in the casino.

SuaSponte, what you said about not putting odds on the don’t pass doesn’t make sense. That bet pays true odds, just like odds on the pass. If you got this from a book, it’s a sign that whoever wrote that book doesn’t understand the probabilities, and there are lots of those books about craps.

22

Look at it this way. You put up a $10 bet on don’t pass. You don’t get slammed by a 7 or 11, and the point is a four. So, if a seven is rolled before a four, you get paid $10. The odds are 2-1 in your favor, so this is a pretty good bet.
Say the table has a maximum of 2X odds. You play full odds and put down $20 behind your $10 don’t pass bet. If you get the seven, you get paid a total of $20 - $10 for the $10 don’t pass bet, and $10 for the $20 free odds bet. If all of your money had been in the form of the don’t pass bet, the payoff would have been $30 instead.

So, the free odds bet actually decreases your rate of pay-off.

'Course, it’s a bit of a trade-off - the $20, placed as a free odds bet, is not subject to the 8/36 chance that a 7 or 11 will be rolled before the point is made. What I’m saying is that once the point is made, the odds change, and the free odds on don’t pass makes less sense (though still not a bad bet, seeing that it pays evenly). That is why the books I have read recommend only a 1X free odds bet on don’t pass/don’t come.

Sua

23

Just want to add one thing: If the don’t pass bet paid out for ALL missouts…in particular, all three craps…it would actually give the bettor an edge. Because of this, the casinos always designate either 2 or 12 as the “standoff” number. That means that when a crap is rolled with that number, a pass bet loses, but a don’t pass bet only breaks even (stands off). I’m a little rusty on the exact mathematics, but this effectively gives the house the same edge for a don’t pass bet as for a pass bet.

Other than that, the same things everyone else’s been saying: 1. Pass, don’t pass, and odds; all else is foolishness. 2. Screw the stupid systems and follow your instincts; you’ll have more fun and do just as well. 3. If you actually do get ahead, quit.

24

One more point about those field bets and hard ways bets - they are HUGE SUCKER bets. The craps table is like a minefield - the pass line bets are among the best bets in the casino in terms of house odds, but many of the other bets are among the worst. Some of them can have a house edge as much as 14 times greater than the pass line. They are a guaranteed way to lose all your money, and quickly.

So deviate from the pass/don’t pass X odds strategy at your peril.

One good thing about placing prop bets at craps - if the pit boss sees you doing it, you’re liable to get some good comps while playing, because you’ve got a big ‘S’ for sucker on your forehead, and the casino will LOVE you.

25

Heh. Maybe downtown. Most of the big places on the Strip have gone to automated comping for all but the highest of high rollers. They track you almost bet for bet and throw it into a computer. Then they comp you a fixed percentage of your extected loss based on the house odds.

So yeah, you will get better comps betting hard ways and proposition bets. But it will be an exact percentage of your sucker rating.

Pity. As you know, one used to be able to ‘game the system’ a little bit doing this. Well timed (when the pit boss was looking) prop bets could sometimes add up to comps in excess of the expected loss.

Is it still possible downtown?

26

[[Is it still possible downtown?]]

Last time I went to Vegas with Manhattan, we went downtown and while he was playing craps, I sat down at a slot machine and won 750 bucks. - Jill

27

if you have the time and want to learn about strategies hang around and/or play on a quarter table.one strategy is to place the 5,6&8 and bet the field, you have everything covered except the 7, but you have to BRING THEM DOWN after a while. there were about 10 $.25 tables here (Las Vegas; not veags if you want to be cooler than the cool) about a year ago but most have gone to 1. the Horseshoe may still have .50. Nevada Palace, Jokers Wild, and El Dorado in Henderson probably still have .25-,50. however the all time great place to see differant strategies is the El Cortez. sometimes on graveyard they go down .25. on a quarter table you can usualy bet up to a $3000 pay out. if you just want to try to win ,read a book and stay on the line with all the other poltroon puppys, but if you want to have fun and learn try a quarter table. most people tell you stay on the do & dont with full odds, but your missing out on a lot of fun. on quarters you can do 2& a q or 3 in, or $3.75 across, 4.50 including, horn high low for $1.50, buffalo, world, hopbets…etc without risking alot of money. i went into the Plaza years ago and put a quater on the field and let it go a few rolls. placed a couple of numbers. let them go a few rolls and brought them down. when they hit i placed other numbers and pressed. let them go and brought them down. and had $87.50 in about 2 hours. not a big win but it was fun. one time at the shoe i played for 46 hours and came out $16 ahead.other times ive lost $3-400 in no time at all. SOME OF THE BEST ADVISE of all is be careful of who you listen to and what advise you believe. craps is a great game if you can stay with in your limit. its fun to take a chance and try prop. bets once in a while just not every roll. i was eating in the Klondike one time and some guy was telling the waitress he was playing 21 on a $25 table and lost his rent money. i said "they have 1 tables down town" and he said "i dont want to play with those losers on Freemont" the guys stupid enough to bet his rent and hes not a loser. ive written more than i wanted to and could go on about craps for a lot longer. its a fun game, gambling is taking chances, play when youre feeling relaxed and happy, quit if you start feeling like you HAVE to win, dont play with more than you can afford to lose, or if you do and get lucky dont start thinkig youre unstoppable. be carful on nickel & up tables but if you want to PLAY CRAPS play on 1 or .25 tables downtown. also on $.25 tables if youre beting under $5 you get quarters in your pay out which you dont get on $1 & up unless the house gives courtesy on 6&8 and vigs. :smiley: :confused:

28

RULES?!?!

You mean it has rules? :wink:

Why muddle it up with rules?

Just roll the dice, dude.

29

Goboy said:

This is excellent advice. To apply it, I suggest you ignore everything else Goboy had to say.

The problem with ‘ocassionally’ placing prop bets is that the odds on most of them are so incredibly bad that even doing this once every ten rolls can more than double the overall cost of playing craps.

30

Sam, that was Goyboy. Goboy is a different user…

Related question: can a casino prove that you’re counting cards? What is the best way to count cards without tipping anyone off?

31

There are a number of ways to tell if you are counting cards. Once the casino is scrutinizing you, the only defense you have is to get up and leave.

The trick is to not get the casino to scrutinize you. That means you have to look like a sucker. How do you do that?
[ul]
[li]NEVER jump your bets quickly. Nothing is more suspicious than a player who always starts a shoe with minimum bets, and then either walks away or bets big towards the end of the shoe. That’s pretty much the ‘signature’ of a card counter.[/li][li]Don’t sit at 3rd base. This is the favored position of card counters, because they gain a tiny extra advantage by seeing more cards before having to act. The added scrutiny isn’t worth it.[/li][li]Be friendly, and tip reasonably. The surest way to get get attention is to make a big hairy thing of yourself when losing, or standing on your ‘rights’ when they don’t want to let sit in the middle of a shoe, or whatever. Most of the guys I know who were barred for card counting were also jerks, and the casino was just looking for a reason to punt them.[/li][li]Don’t bet large. This obviously doesn’t apply to pros, who need to bet reasonably large to make a living. But if you’re just looking at making a bit on the side or going to Vegas without losing your shirt, keep your bets reasonable. The typical casino couldn’t care if you’re counting, as long as you’re only spread from maybe $5 to $50 or so. But the minute the green and black chips come out, the pit will take an interest in you.[/li][li]NEVER play for a long time at one casino. If you play long enough, someone will start watching you at some point, and then you’re cooked because the key to card counting is to bet big when the shoe is rich in tens and aces, and bet small when it isn’t. There’s no way you can hide the fact that you’re playing a winning game if some guy who is also a counter is following your play from the eye in the sky.[/li]
The rule of thumb is generally 45 minutes in one place, then pack up and go elsewhere. Or, if you hit a hot shoe and are forced into some unusual plays (either betting big, or doubling a soft 19, or something else equally suspicious), then get up and leave as soon as the shoe is over. As a professional counter, that was the worst part of the whole deal. The continual moving from casino to casino, looking for good penetration, avoiding pit bosses who know you, etc. BORING.

[li]Avoid the ‘card counter profile’. That typically means a youngish male, betting money that it doesn’t look like he can afford, carrying a serious expression, drinking bottled water, etc. If you’re betting big, look the part. Order a vodka tonic or something while the pit boss is within earshot, then carry it with you to the bathroom in a while, dump it out, and fill with water.[/li]
[li]Be VERY good at card counting. I survived a number of close inspections simply by being able to count so fast that I could ‘snapshot’ the table out of the corner of my eye and continue playing while in a conversation with the pit boss.[/li]
[li] Avoid high profile plays, like splitting tens, doubling soft 19’s, etc. You give up almost nothing by ignoring these plays, while making it much more difficult to spot your skills.[/li][/ul]

There are a lot of other tricks. For the best information on this aspect of the game, I highly recommend two books by ‘Ian Anderson’ - “Turning the Tables on Las Vegas”, and “Burning the Tables in Las Vegas”. I know “Ian” somewhat, and this guy is one of the most successful high-limit card counters around.

Counting cards for pocket money as a hobby is a lot of fun. Doing it for a living is a GIANT pain in the ass, unless you’re happy making minumum wage. If you want to make a good living (say, $75K a year or more), you’re going to be travelling. A lot. It’s a ton of work, lots of risk (I know good counters that have had losing streaks so bad they were down money at the end of a year), and it gets boring.

I didn’t stick with blackjack all that long once I got to the higher limits. I found out that Poker was much more profitable, much more fun, and it was nice to have the casino actually happy to see you.

32

The point I was trying to make , I know I got off on other things and wasn’t clear, was if someone dosen’t understand all aspects of the game & if they play on a low limit table and watch what’s going on they can get a lot more experience and a better understanding of the game. If they want to try the prop bets for 25 or 50 cents they can make 10, 20, 30 prop bets and only risk $10 or $20. If they catch a few they get some of thier money back. If they’re on a $5 dollar table later they may not be tempted to give in to that impulse. Also if a person plays on a low limit table they can play just for the fun of it and only risk $20 or $40. I wrote that at 4 a.m. and got off on a ridiculous memory tangent.:open_mouth:

33

Sua – First off, I did say the best odds were betting wrong. I just said there were other reasons besides math to bet “right”.

Secondly, to clarify, I believe you are speaking of the outcome after the point has been established. It is true that you have better than even odds at this time. In this case, your logic is correct but irrelevant. Sure, you have better odds to put money on the don’t pass line at that point, only it’s illegal to. Your strategy seems to be, bet $10 on don’t pass. Then (assuming a point is established), don’t put odds behind the line because it is a better strategy to **go back in time ** and put that money on the don’t pass line, since you know a point will be established putting the odds in your favor. You see why this comparison makes no sense. The fact remains that the odds behind the line are mathematically true, which is better odds than the don’t pass line, so you should take full advantage of it.

IMHO, the reasons I previously stated are why people don’t bet on the don’t pass line. I agree with you that it is mathematically better than the pass line though.