Creationism Sex Change!!

Great Debates
1

I wonder if we can pull this off.

With so many creation vs. evolution threads out there, how about a change?

My suggestion is that we have the standard Creation versus evolution argument, but with a role reversal.

If you have posted before as a creationist take on the role of one who favors evolution.
Become a Godless heathen and use science to distort faith (you know you want to!)

If you have posted before in favor of science and evolution, take on the role of the Creation Scientist and prove God!! (you know you’ve always wanted to!).

One ground rule. Let’s be sincere, and make an effort with our arguments. Let’s not create straw men to knock down.

Perhaps if we do this, both sides may learn something, and understanding will be furthered.

Perhaps each side will demonstrate it’s understanding of the other side’s position, and thus gain credibility as they post in other topics when their role is not reversed.

Maybe the accusation that has been heard that this is an unfair forum for this kind of debate will be disproved.

Perhaps it will only be amusing.

I won’t post here in either role, rather I will only jump in if I see someone setting up a straw man. In short, I will be the role moderater (if that’s ok)

I think we can pull this off,and maybe we’ll see some new arguments from both sides.

So who wants to step up to the plate?

“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

2

I tried this once before. The best I could do was “Evolution claims we evolved from apes, but apes are still here!”. I’m not very good at believing in something I don’t believe in.

3

Not sure if I am allowed to participate in this thread or not, since I am not a literal-Genesis-creationist, but I certainly don’t think evolution can explain it all, so I guess I will allow myself to don the evolutionist hat for this thread.

[evolutionist hat on]

We evolutionists do not believe that humans evolved from literal apes, only that apes and humans share a common ancestor. They adapted to their environment, we adapted to a different environment, which required greater intelligence.

[/evolutionist hat off]

4

Well said dill, and you are very welcome to be here. That was an excellent start.

Now, is anybody gone let dill get away with that damnable assertion and all that it implies?

“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

5

It is perfectly possible that God created and set in motion the process of natural selection and evolution for us to discover.
Sorry, that’s about as fur as I can go.

6

What if we already know (or think we know) the answer?

Here are a few creationist arguments:

  1. The number of ribs drastically varies up and down as you go from genus to genus between eohippus and equus.

  2. A number of functionally related genes are located next to each other on the genome, therefore implying that an anthropomorphic God placed them there during the orderly process of creation.

  3. Those halo things, which I think have already been addressed around here (but I’d appreciate a link to an evolutionist rebuttal.)

  4. Scientists cannot posit an event which would have homogenized the genetic locus used in the “Y-chromosome Adam” study.

I think that’s enough for a start.

-Ben

7

If God didn’t create the universe, who did?

(There’s a loaded question for you)

8

Scylla said:

Sorry, it’s quite impossible for me to pretend to be a creationist without using straw man arguments.

Incidentally, this sort of thing was done before, though with a more open subject (arguing the reverse of anything), if people want to see what was said: http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000008/HTML/20000403-7-000802.html

9

You evolutionists are falling into a simple trap. God created the world, including all of the fossils and other “evidence” you use to build your arguments for evolution. He is testing your faith and you are failing the test.

10

Hilarious link David!

Hmmm. Since people have been known on occasion to post arguments that they knew were false in the hopes of passing it off as fact, perhaps I should drop the strict prohibition against straw men. Let’s make no obvious straw men. Let’s at least daub some mud on them and get them to the level of Adobe man arguments. If it’s original it would be especially cool.

“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

11

Evolution happened and its sorta there and… yeah

12

[Creationist Hat: ON]

But you haven’t found the missing link!

[Creationist Hat: OFF]

13

Sorry, but I cannot do this at all.

I mean, how about we go back to that infamous “baby rapers” thread and all argue that it’s a COOL idea, eh?

This isn’t quite to th same degree as that, but both thoughts sicken me, just in different ways.

Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

Still not smoking, but away from my meter!

14

Satan:

If you don’t wanna, I won’t try and make ya.

As a point of interest, re: arguing in favor of baby rapers.

The FBI has done just this and produced great good. It’s called profiling (has little to do with that horrible tv show.) FBI agents interview serial killers and such so they know how they think.

They try to get themselves to think like their quarry and even to sympathize. Once they’ve done so, Once they’ve done so, it’s more easy to predict what they will do next, set a trap for them that they can’t resist. Etcetera.

Read a book about it but forgot the name.

Know thy enemy and devil’s advocate and such.

Plus, science suggests that if we cling to deeply to our beliefs we are in danger of falling victim to dogma. What I like best about science is that everything is up for grabs. Nothing is sacred.

Anyway, I can’t help but be somewhat disapointed. I’d heard you mention that you spent a lot of time over at LBMB, and must have heard some new and interesting viewpoints.

“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

15

New? Rarely, but once in a while. Interesting? Well, sometimes I actually had to do some researh to see what the claim actually was and what others said about it, and I find learning new things interesting.

But I never once saw any creationist rhetoric which was not shown to be flawed in some way.

As such, I do not see the folly of this. If a shred of evidence came up which real science could not answer, or even agreed with, I would tout that as much as I do anything else.

I could certainly have as much fun as David and Asmoden have had above, lampooning the other side’s vitriol with sarcastic remarks which essentially show that they really don’t UNDERSTAND the other side - David B’s post shows he doesn’t understand the illogic of the others stance, Asmoden’s comment shows he doesn’t understand evolution itself.

It’s one thing to flip on a debate which is one of social issues, politics, ethics, and the like.

But when you ask to switch sides on something like this, it is akin to saying to switch sides by saying that 2 + 2 is not equal to four, and to back that up. Sure, a philosopher can (and has) come up with some ways to take this on, but try not answering it four in a math class.

Sorry, but I can’t. If that’s a limitation of mine, so be it.

I am very adept at playing devil’s advocate. I can probably argue pro-life better than many who have that view because I am lucky enough to be somewhat intelligent, have paid attention to those on both sides, and can follow debating technique. This is what debate teams will do - argue both sides of an issue or philosophy.

This is not about something like that. There is no debate. Or there shouldn’t be one. To paraphrase Cecil, here at the Straight Dope, we don’t take votes on the facts.

These are facts we are dealing with. Not opinions. And the facts - all of them - do not point to a 6,000 year old universe. Period.

Show me some and I’ll concur. I have yet to see any new evidence for this, and every bit of evidence that supposedly questions an ancient universe has been shot down.

Sorry if this makes me a spoil-sport…

Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

Still not smoking, but away from my meter!

16

The scientific interpretation of knowlege is fundamentally flawed. To participate in science is to engage in a practice that at its core corrupts the soul. Merely to begin the practice of science is to vaunt our limited intelligence and meager senses over the grandeur and infinite wisdom of God.

That God exists is undeniable and irrefutable. All people feel the hand of God in their heart. Those who “deny” God have merely been tempted by Satan; they do know that God exists but they allow Satan to use their mouths.

A truly just and loving God will always give them a chance to repent and receive the full glory of His majesty. Is it written that in the End Times all men will go before Jesus. All will be made plain: It will be each man’s choice to look fully into the face of our savior and choose salvation, or to cast his gaze away and choose annihilation. Even in this, God shows his mercy and releases even he who does not choose redemption and salvation from his soul’s pain.

God created the world for his own ineffable purposes. He has given us our instructions for our part in that plan in the Bible, but His overall purpose cannot be known to our puny minds.

But all men serve God’s purpose, even the unrighteous and unholy. Satan is God’s creation no less that Jesus. He has instructed us to combat evil and unholiness; what can be more unholy than to deny His primacy in the creation of the world? But it is indubitably part of his plan that we must have such unholiness to combat.

The practice of science has given mankind seemingly great gifts. But are not these gifts the bribes of Satan? The mass of men have been seduced by these bribes and our world has become more unholy for their acceptance. In accepting these gifts, we have discarded a gift greater by far than any Satan has offered: The grace of God and the perfect trust we may have in the furtherance of His plan.

Yes, we may suffer in the furtherance of God’s plan. God did not promise us Paradise in this world. But by his covenant we shall receive eternal Paradise in the next. Even the minions of Satan shall receive the opportunity to enter this Paradise; they too serve God’s purpose, and it is never too late for repentance. But even in this world, we may receive comfort and peace of mind from absolute trust in the glory of God and our part in his divine purpose.

Faith is the way to this peace of mind. Faith is and will always be the key to eternal salvation. It is only through the total rejection of science, though, that one can acheive this faith. Science teaches us to doubt, to question; Faith teaches us to accept and believe. We have God’s Word to which we hold our faith. That science contradicts that faith indicates it is irrelevant and immaterial.

Dr. Crane! Your glockenspiel has come to life!

17

Satan… my and David B’s posts actually showed something?

Ok ill go a little further.

What will you say when evolution is proven?

18

Satan wrote:

If you’re away from your meter, do you still get credit for the extra hours of life?

After all, remember what Tom Lehrer told the boy scouts:

*    Be prepared,
    And be careful not to do
    Your good deed
    When there’s no one watching you.*
– tracer, who is looking for adventure of a new and different kind, but has yet to find a girlscout who is similarly inclined.

19

Satan:

As I mentioned, I have no wish to put you to The Question, and force you to accept Special Creation.

No Grand Inquisitor, I.

I understand your reluctance.

Singledad:

Very well done. It appears to me you missed your calling. :slight_smile:

“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

20

Let me try
[creationist]
OK. I can understand if we evolvd and there is no god. But, answer me this. How can life be so bewautiful and enjoyable. I look at beautiful flowers, a baeautiful ocean, I taste amazing food. What reason could there be for all of this if God hadn’t created it. Wat evolutionary reason can there be for enjoying food so much? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have everything taste just ok. What reason can there be for enjoying the beach so much, or finding beauty in art? I can’t explain it without the idea that a creator intended it for us.
[creationist]
There I hope that was a good argument. Let’s see a creationist refute it with their magical evolutionist hat. :slight_smile: