Creationists, be gone [How to keep claims about 3,000 year-old dinos out of schools]

Great Debates
1

Allrighty, TMs (and hopefully Cecil),
I recently heard that Liberty University
(founded by "God Will Kill Me $8 Million, please - Oral Roberts)
houses dinosaur fossils which Liberty claims to be
3,000 years old. I think all of us on this forum know that
that is QUITE impossible. The Bible’s David would’ve had a pet T-Rex
if it were possible.

I’m not looking to make any form of thought illegal in the U.S.,
but how in the world can we keep it out of schools?

Many thanks and best to all, — Scared for humanity :slight_smile:

2

Seems like more of a GD question that GQ.

How do we keep it out of our schools? The same way we have been— through vigorous challenges in the court system when states or localities pass laws requiring (or allowing) the teaching of creationism. So fat that seems to be working excellently. No?

But trying to keep it out of private schools is a waste of time. They can teach pretty much whatever they want, and it would be a violation of the constitution to not allow them to. Liberty University is such a school.

3

More importantly, why would we want to keep it out of schools? Students who buy into such hypotheses aren’t interested in scholarship anyway, so we might as well let them have their own schools where they won’t constantly try to sabotage real learning.

4

Moved from General Questions to Great Debates; edited thread title.

Gfactor
General Questions Moderator

5

As an aside, Liberty U was founded by Jerry Falwell, not Oral Roberts.

6

[QUOTE=aptronym]
More importantly, why would we want to keep it out of schools? Students who buy into such hypotheses aren’t interested in scholarship anyway, so we might as well let them have their own schools where they won’t constantly try to sabotage real learning.
[/QUOTE]

Very true, everyone. But I am conflicted on Liberty U.
On CNN’s “Gods and Warriors”, Christine A. interviewed two girls
who received scholarships to Liberty after reciting a prayer
at their HS graduation after permission to do so was NOT granted.
Both girls received full scholarships. Maybe their mentality
matches that of Liberty’s 3,000 year-old fossils, and that
they will learn “facts” that are widely accepted in their own realm.

With religion as powerful a poitical lobby it has become,
I fear many from schools like Liberty U. WILL be offered
careers only on the sake of religion, not education.

7

[QUOTE=WoodenTaco]
As an aside, Liberty U was founded by Jerry Falwell, not Oral Roberts.
[/QUOTE]

Doh! I always mix up our famous thumpers.

I always have to sing the song about the reindeer
to name those too!

Thnx for the correction.

8

[QUOTE=prleone]
Very true, everyone. But I am conflicted on Liberty U.
On CNN’s “Gods and Warriors”, Christine A. interviewed two girls
who received scholarships to Liberty after reciting a prayer
at their HS graduation after permission to do so was NOT granted.
Both girls received full scholarships. Maybe their mentality
matches that of Liberty’s 3,000 year-old fossils, and that
they will learn “facts” that are widely accepted in their own realm.

With religion as powerful a poitical lobby it has become,
I fear many from schools like Liberty U. WILL be offered
careers only on the sake of religion, not education.
[/QUOTE]

Since you got the founder of Liberty U wrong, forgive me if I’d like to see a cite on your 3,00oyo DinoFossil claim. They may well claim to have one, but I want to see the claim.

And are you taking exception to the girls getting Liberty U scholarships after standing up to the Man? :smiley:

9

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
Since you got the founder of Liberty U wrong, forgive me if I’d like to see a cite on your 3,00oyo DinoFossil claim. They may well claim to have one, but I want to see the claim.

And are you taking exception to the girls getting Liberty U scholarships after standing up to the Man? :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Wikipedia comes through- Liberty University - Wikipedia

When Richard Dawkins spoke at Randolph College, a questioner told him that Liberty U had a dino fossil on display with a note that it was 3000 years old, & he responded quite disparingingly about that, of course.

So far, I’ve seen no real evidence offered that they make the claim. Anyway, it doesn’t make much sense even from Young-Earth-Creationist perspectives.
YEC’s place the Flood around 2400 BC & generally think dinos dies off soon after due to the climate change. It would make more “sense” if the claim was the fossil went back to 3000 BC.

Btw, IANA YEC- I’m between OEC & Theistic Evolution, but when YEC’s are attacked, I want the attack to at least be accurate.

10

The schools creationism needs to be kept out of are schools controlled by the government. I’m quite happy that there are places like Liberty University - it makes recruiting and hiring decisions simple. Anyone looking for employees with independent thought and excellent powers of logic and reasoning can toss resumes from Liberty grads in the trash in a picosecond. However the graduates are well qualified for such centers of excellence as the Discovery Institute and the Bush Administration.

11

[QUOTE=prleone]
their mentality matches that of Liberty’s 3,000 year-old fossils, and that they will learn “facts” that are widely accepted in their own realm … I fear many from schools like Liberty U. WILL be offered careers only on the sake of religion, not education.
[/QUOTE]

As much as I disagree with the result, I can’t disagree with the process. The price we pay for democracy and capitalism is that odious ideas get elected because they’re popular and odious products get sold because they’re in demand.

12

[QUOTE=aptronym]
As much as I disagree with the result, I can’t disagree with the process. The price we pay for democracy and capitalism is that odious ideas get elected because they’re popular and odious products get sold because they’re in demand.
[/QUOTE]

I think the best we can do is to keep them from passing laws favoring their religion by defending the separation of church and state.

I want a pet T-Rex.

13

I suppose a case could be made for some state intervention in private schools at the elementary/secondary level. I would consider it a very weak case, but I can see where the state has an interest in the education of minor children. Once you get to the college level, though, I just don’t see any case at all.

Frankly, there are so many real problems in this world, that this doesn’t even make my radar. Christians want to teach what they consider to be a Christian world-view at a privately funded university. If I had to choose sides in this fight, I’d be with the folks at Liberty U, to my considerable distaste.

14

I’d also like to see a cite showing they are claiming 3000 year old dino fossils. Not that I would be surprised but if you are going to have an OP on a subject you should have something to back it up.

[QUOTE=prleone]
I’m not looking to make any form of thought illegal in the U.S.,
but how in the world can we keep it out of schools?
[/QUOTE]

Liberty University is a privately founded/funded university. Not only do I disagree with you that we SHOULD prevent such schools from teaching whatever the hell they want to teach, I don’t think you CAN do so legally. I totally disagree with the whole whole BS YEC/OEC/ANY kind of Creationism thingy…yet you are totally wrong in trying to prevent them from doing what the what they want to do in this instance. If people want to be stupid…especially people going to college for gods sake…then it’s not up to you to save them from themselves.

-XT

15

[QUOTE=John Mace]
I suppose a case could be made for some state intervention in private schools at the elementary/secondary level. I would consider it a very weak case, but I can see where the state has an interest in the education of minor children. Once you get to the college level, though, I just don’t see any case at all.

Frankly, there are so many real problems in this world, that this doesn’t even make my radar. Christians want to teach what they consider to be a Christian world-view at a privately funded university. If I had to choose sides in this fight, I’d be with the folks at Liberty U, to my considerable distaste.
[/QUOTE]

I think it SHOULD make radar so close to an election year, no offense
there, John.

I personally don’t believe that all the runninng politicians (candidates)
are really religious. Usually, we see Nobel prize winners, scientists, etc. as agnostic or atheist. Higher IQs, money, more secondary education–these are factors that lean towards skepticism in religion and spiritual belief.

Yet, politicians will parade Falwell, Roberts, Graham, etc. onstage as their spiritual supporter. Notice, not religious supporter, but spiritual.
(Maybe it’s just the “governmentese” term of preference.)

I’ve recently met a few VERY devout people who claim Hillary shouldn’t be allowed to run, because women aren’t supposed to work. Yes, this happened in 2007.

I doubt they’ll vote anyway…

16

I totally disagree with the whole whole BS YEC/OEC/ANY kind of Creationism thingy…yet you are totally wrong in trying to prevent them from doing what the what they want to do in this instance. If people want to be stupid…especially people going to college for gods sake…then it’s not up to you to save them from themselves.

-XT
[/QUOTE]

Good point, XT. It’s not up to me…
it could be up to all of us someday. Hopefully not.

17

Better approach wouldn’t be to make Liberty U’s classes illegal, but to make drugs in LU’s state legal. College kids that are stoned absorb very little.

18

[QUOTE=prleone]
I think it SHOULD make radar so close to an election year, no offense
there, John.
[/quote]

No offense taken. Why do you think it should make the radar.

I don’t see how any of that is related to whether or not something is on the radar. And I think you’d be surprised at how many “High IQ” types are not atheists.

No offense, but you seem to be just writing random sentences about why you don’t like religious people, not making an argument about how you would stifle a private college from teaching creationism.

So it shouldn’t be on the radar, then? :confused:

19

[QUOTE=prleone]
I personally don’t believe that all the runninng politicians (candidates) are really religious.
[/quote]

Politicians pretend to be something they’re not. In other news, sun rises in east, pope still Catholic.

20

[QUOTE=John Mace]
No offense taken. Why do you think it should make the radar.
I don’t see how any of that is related to whether or not something is on the radar. And I think you’d be surprised at how many “High IQ” types are not atheists.

No offense, but you seem to be just writing random sentences about why you don’t like religious people, not making an argument about how you would stifle a private college from teaching creationism.
So it shouldn’t be on the radar, then? :confused:
[/QUOTE]

Okay, okay, definitely TOO random.
And the devout folks I mentioned probably don’t make the polls.

But a politician meets young students from places like Liberty.
They might say, “I believe in Creationism. Do you?”
The politician calculates the potential voter support from the Christian
right, the campaign funding for a re-election, and replies with
something vague (Bless them, they CAN do that.)

I guess my real point is, What do the candidates REALLY feel about
their own, and other religions in the education system?
It seems to be a habit of Americans to say you believe,
but not how much you believe.

Someone else replied saying (paraphrasing) “It makes it easy for employers
to throw their resumes in the trash in a picosecond”. (Picosecond! LOL)
Should we let young devout students believe religion to
the extent where it might keep them unemployed?