Ha! LOL I think that might be the nutshell, Anne!
YES.
Here’s something that is sort of a cite.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i1/fossil.asp
It doesn’t actually state that they claim that it’s 3000 years old. But if it’s in their “creationist museum” then it’s reasonable to assume they are making at least a similar claim.
How would we go about making them not believe? Remember, we’re talking about adults here, not children. I suppose there are a few on campus under 18, but the vast majority must be over that age.
I have to agree that the government really doesn’t have the power to dictate what private universities teach. But they could deny any kind of financial aid. In fact if a university is teaching “science” that is clearly religion rather than science, then it could be argued that they are constitutionally forbidden to give aid.
I don’t think that traditional respected accreditation organizations should be accrediting such schools.
Should we also limit the number of liberal arts degrees that we allow colleges to give out each year, because people with liberal arts degrees have a harder time finding jobs than people with business or engineering degrees?
These are college students, therefore the vast majority of them are adults. Adults are allowed to make all kinds of choices that make them less employable- we’re allowed to not learn in-demand computer skills, not learn foreign languages, live in economically depressed areas, get facial piercings, and so on. As long as these people aren’t getting a welfare check from us, their lack of employability is their problem and not anyone else’s (except for any family members they are supporting).
A quote from the fossil discoverer in this article:
‘There is just no way that the theory of evolution can be reconciled with the truth of creation as recorded in the Bible. And as a former adherent to this false theory of evolution, I can assure anyone that to discount the God of creation and His wonderful works is sheer folly.’
Sounds like you’re right. Leaning towards the 3,000 year claim…
And keep in mind that there are a very limited number of jobs requiring an understanding of evolution. Unless you’re a professional biologist, it’s not going to hurt your ability to get a job. I don’t know what problems there might be getting into Medical School, but I find it hard to believe that there are no evangelical medical doctors out there, and that all the doctors in the US are firm “believers” in evolution. It certainly helps in being a doctor to understand evolution, but I doubt it’s necessary.
I have to say that this seems more like an attempt to “stick it” to creationists. If we can let the Amish live like they do, I think we can let the YECs live the way they want. If we can let Native Americans teach their creation myths, and deny the current understanding of evolution, we can let the YECs do the same.
I’ve seen the results of these ‘colleges’ at a normal college, and it isn’t just evolution they have a problem with. I’ve seen students argue with teachers over points backed solely by quotes from the bible fully expecting to win, dismiss arguments with ‘Thats what the devil wants us to think’, flat out call professors wrong to their faces in class or laugh at things when they don’t agree with them. This is in sociology, literature, philosophy, mathematics, not just biology.
Those ‘colleges’ do not prepare students for the real world, and it’s a harsh adjustment when they leave. In their nice little isolated worlds, like the Amish, they do fine cuz everyone thinks the same thing. But when they go somewhere different they clash, sometimes badly.
I’m not advocating controlling what private institutions can teach, but I would sure as hell like to see places like this lose accreditationing.
Particularly Theatre Arts majors. Oh, Studio Arts, too. At least make them take a class in waiting tables and have an education minor.
(I majored in Film Studies - now THERE is an employable major).
I hate to say it, but in 25 years in corporate America, I’ve never been in a position that I’d have been challenged to do my job simply by believing in YEC. Or God. Or Tarot. Or Crystal Healing. Those things just don’t come up on a day to day basis - or, frankly, ever. Granted, critical thinking skills have been needed to get where I’ve gone, but one of the managers I work with is a Fundamentalist YEC, and it works very well for him - he doesn’t seem at all constrained by what I would consider a narrow worldview.
John, I think if you take the long view, you may see that there’s more to what **prleone ** is saying than a desire to curtail a private institution’s practices. Unlike the Amish and, to a great extent, Native Americans, graduates of Crristianity-focused colleges like LU, RU, and ORU not only interact with the general public once they leave school, or matriculate from other schools, as **hotflungwok ** said, but are indoctrinated, inculcated, and encouraged to express a driving desire to effect changes, from a religious perspective, in our political and legislative systems, from the national down to the local level, that can negatively impact society.
I don’t know if LU has officially stated the fossil’s age to be 3000 years old, but its students seem to believe it and the assertion hasn’t been denied by LU faculty in any public fora I’ve read about. It seems to me if the school has the fossils on display it must be to make a point, so even if the YEC opinion, at least in the case of these fossils, is not officially taught, it’s, with little doubt, heavily implied. I, personally, would not give a damn that institutions teach YEC malarkey sopped up by the minds of their uncritical students, if they didn’t have an impact on society upon graduation and beyond, but they do.
Evolution, in and of itself does not, as you say, impact most people’s lives at all, but laws and policies that may be enacted by those who are virulently opposed to anything contradicting creationist dogma, with emphasis on (their weak attempts at) debunking Evolution as a way to instill and cement doubt and solidify their case, can have wide-ranging effects on society. I think I can say, without too much dissent expressed, that a very vocal, yet growing, minority of creationsts want to change what is taught in educational institutions, not just at the college level, but at the high school and grammar school levels as well, to coincide with their biblical perspectives, and not just for private institutions, but for all schools. They haven’t been too successful in the last 20 years, thanks goodness, but they not only haven’t given up, they’ve resorted to duplicitous tactics, hence ID.
I do agree with both you and xtisme, John, that it’s not legal to prevent private institutions from teaching whatevertheheck they want, but I do worry about what this portends for American society in the long term. I echo prleone’s concern.
I should have said “The topic of Evolution, in and of itself…” Evolution affects us all.
A biologist of my acquaintance who has taught pre-meds thinks doctors are just high skilled technicians. I agree that I don’t care if my surgeon believes in evolution or not, only that he has good hands.
But - I’d wonder about a creationist doctor’s ability as a diagnostician. While everyone tends to see evidence according to their preconceived notions, I think a case can be made for a creationist having this tendency more strongly than someone who accepts all the evidence. There was an article in the Times about a meeting of creationists with real credentials, not LU. One was bemoaning the fact that it was getting more and more difficult to come up with creationist explanations for the evidence. (Yes, he was that blatant.) Now this wasn’t a doctor, but a “scientist” (even less justified) but I’d rather not have someone with that mindset trying to figure out what was wrong with me, thanks.
Nor would I (though I might be willing make an exception for a institution that taught the use of “accreditationing”).
They should, at least in subject for which they do not prepare their students properly. Are you sure they aren’t? What body even controls that?
But this isn’t anything new. The majority of Americans think God created humans as we are. Even if they believe other animals evolved, they believe in “special creation” for humans. There is a small, but vocal minority that is actively trying to get creationism back into schools. They haven’t been successful, and I don’t see that changing. I guess we’re all free to worry about what we like, but people not accepting evolution is waaaaay down on my list
hotflungwok spoke of religious fanatics taking issue with mathematics. Now, if there was a sizable number of those folks working to change how math is taught, I might get worried. But I’ve never met such people, and would be astounded if they represent more than 1% of the US population, if that.
I’ve often said that myself. I knew the pre-med kids in college, and while I was studying real science, many of them were just getting by in Chemistry or Biology, only taking the bare minimum needed to get into Med School. I’m sure there are plenty of very intelligent doctors out there, and you don’t get thru med school if you’re an idiot. But that doesn’t make you a scientist. That title I would reserve for the guys doing medical research.
Sure, but it’s a choice that a legal adult makes. I feel bad for the students who were forced into it by overbearing Christian parents, but in the end, this is something the free market is going to work out.
If there’s a large enough market for Liberty University graduates, then there really isn’t much we (as the rest of society) can do.
Are you sure they’re accredited to begin with? Or not accredited by some equally retarded organization?
Just to be clear to everyone who wanders in this forum,
It is NOT my intention to discredit an entire University,
no matter who or what founded it. Nor to discredit ANY religion.
It is my intention to discuss whether or not Creationism should be
allowed to be taught in ANY school, as it may not prepare a student
for some life/career goals.
There are many careers that would not be affected,
but I think anything considered creative would not be
a working realm for a student who did not really explore,
rather just heard and accepted.
You all have some great examples and points, as always
on TSD forums.
From Wikipedia
TRACS is interesting (maybe I should say disturbing rather than interesting).
Again from Wikipedia
I don’t think anyone is having trouble understanding that.
Perhaps you could be more specific about how you would go about accomplishing that. Are there any other subjects you want to ban? And… do you support abolishing the 1st amendment in order to do it (the “free exercise” clause)?
You seem to be skipping the hard work about how you would go about doing this. Until you do, I doubt you’re going to get anyone to agree with you.
Can you get those attack-trained? 