Creationists Call for Debate

I know I’m new here. I’m just waiting for the topic over there to shift over to biology. It’s bound to happen. By and large, I feel that creationists use blatant misunderstanding of the biologic processes as evidence for so called divine creation all the time.

It also seems to me that the vast majority of arguments put forth by creationists do not deal with evolution at all –
-explain how the universe came from nothing
-explain abiogenesis
-explain the thickness of moon dust
-explain the change in the earth’s magnetic field

None of these should have any effect on whether evolution took place or not (except on time-scale). All that is needed for evolution is a changing environment and a particle which is able to self-replicate imperfectly.

Any chance on convincing the Straight Dope admins to go gingham for a day?

and a VERY long time…

Well, I think this is nonsense. Who says I have closed my mind to any argument? Who says my opinion is based solely on the single poster whose example I used to illustrate my point?

-Ben

Quote

"mostly from Palm Cove (who was not around for previous incidents and can therefore plead ignorance). "

Andros , yes I plead ignorance. Please do tell me about “previous incidents”. A quick summary will do, so as not to bore longer term Dopers.

I did not mean any malice (its not the Pit), toward anyone in my posts on this subject but I really was shocked to see that creationists actually exist. I had never knowingly met one till coming here.

I’ll take those odds too!!

Seriously… I sometimes actually LEARN from those discussions… at least when my brain doesn’t try to explode from reading some of the posts. Guess I haven’t evolved enough to keep up with it all. :wink:

Beth

“Never knowingly met one” - as soon as I saw that Palm Cove I thought “ooh, another Australian.” Religion in the US appears to be much more a topic of interest than it is for us, and yes, people will put forward creationist arguments in public places. I recommend reading some of this type of thread, you will get a fair appreciation of some cultural differences.

Someone who was around when it happened will be along to recount the history of previous attempts to breed understanding from these two species of message boards, but crudely, some people from here signed up on the Left Behind MB and ugliness and recrimination ensued. The hope here would be that nothing like that would happen this time.

picmr

Mauve Dog said:

I don’t take up these arguments in an attempt to convince those who are arguing on the other side – in general, they will not change their minds no matter what. However, there are generally a lot of lurkers watching such discussions. Some of them may be on the fence. They are the reasons I am debating.

I had said: “For one thing, one of the main players has said he doesn’t want to get into the science aspect of it!”

Navigator replied:

You could say there is part of anything that is “philosophy,” but that’s generally not the part that matter – nor is it the part that most of us want to discuss. Too often I see the philosophy red herring brought up in creation/evolution discussions – generally by the creationist who doesn’t want to discuss evidence.

Okay David,

Educate me, how much philosophy is there in the theory of evolution? Then, kind sir, please how much is the theory of evolution used to explain a materialistic philosophy?

I don’t think those are unfair questions.

The science of evolution presupposes no-creator because there, supposedly, is no empirical evidence for said creator. To explain a process in which nothing miraculous happens one HAS to presuppose a materialistic philosophy.

On the other side of the argument, creation and intelligent design advocates, clearly state their presuppositions, and then are slighted by ‘hard scientists’ because of their philosophy, not because of their science. (Dr. Dino and the like excluded please… I freely admit his teachings are hardly science.)

I think both sides of the argument have preconcieved philosophic leanings that will color how they evaluate any evidence presented.

To say that one side uses Red Herrings while the other doesn’t is a tad presumptive as well, but that never stopped anyone from using a fallacy.

I’m not David, but I’ll take a crack at the second part of the question: (Evolution used to explain…). The answer is: It’s irrelevant. You can’t judge an arguement based on how others use it. If you could, the Bible would be in a lot of trouble, given some of the crackpot theories that people have tried to use it for (slavery, the “serpent seed” doctrine, Ezikiel’s wheel=Chariots of the Gods space-ships, etc). The fact that kooks co-opt your arguement is irrelevant to the validity of the arguement itself.

No! The science of evolution {i]stands neutral* on a creator. Evolution says “Species change through the process of natural selection and mutation”. If you want to add “and that’s because God set it up that way!”, you will not be in conflict with Evolution. Evolution does not equal athiesm.

I disagree.
But before I do, let me distinguish a person who believes in creation as a matter of faith (a creationist) from a person who tries to prove creation as fact (creation-‘scientist’). I’ve got no problems with creationist. They can believe whatever they want an I won’t say a word. The Creation-‘scientists’ I’ve spoken with and/or the ones I’ve read have done their best to obfuscate their position. They pretend that they’re looking for objective evidence, but, in reality are looking for proof of the literalness of the Bible. A “real” scientist is willing to toss out his theories if the theory doesn’t fit the evidence. I’ve never seen a creation-“scientist” do that. (One data-point. Check out 5 random creation-‘science’ web sites. I’ll bet that most of them still have that footprint of a dinosaur and a man picture. That’s not honest and that’s not science.)

Fenris

Agreed.

Agreed. Althougu I disagree with the ‘God set it up that way.’ My point is that there are some that extend the theory of evolution past the ‘species change’ PoV, on both sides of the fence, which goes back to your first point, I believe.

True, if only all ‘scientists’ did that.

My reasoning might be kind of circular, but see your first point… re: Kooks and such…

Call me shallow, but I am tickled by the idea that David B. is motivated by The Invisible Gingham Lurker.

picmr

Having just made my first visit to the place, let me just say that my increasingly despondent view of the state of humanity has not been abated. Never before have I seen, gathered together in a single place, a group of people so convinced of their own moral superiority and general “rightness” on every topic, and less willing to commit an original thought less they be deemed sinful.

ummm… you were supposed to go to the Pizza Parlor… not Great Debates… :stuck_out_tongue:

Navigator,

It is incorrect to state that Darwinism proposes no creator, if by that you mean that Darwinism depends on the non-existence of God. It does not propose, or depend on God, describe God, deny God, nor impute to God any act, or influence. Darwinism is not really much of anything but the single small portion of modern biology that first proposed the mechanism by which the phenomenon of speciation occurs. Darwin is not the final word on his Ism.

While there are some for whom science is so overwhelmingly important that it becomes Scienceism, the real nature of science is just that certain methods of investigation are followed, and certain conventions of testing, and questioning are rigorously required before any information is accepted as useful models of reality. That’s it. That is all it is. God is not examined, because God cannot be examined in the necessary fashion. Scientific rigor requires that God be viewed as inherently indeterminable by the scientific method. Therefore faith cannot be permitted as evidence. It cannot be denied, either, outside of that narrow use.

What is saddest of all is that “Creationism” takes the greatest gift of all, faith, and seeks to dress it up in garments of bad science, and drag it through the mud of political polemics. What is true of science, that it is irrelevant to matters of faith is true as well of faith, it will not stand in the place of skeptical examination. Skeptical examination is the method of science. It serves little purpose in matters of faith. But there are other dangers, far more perilous to faith, than to science.

People make up lies about science, and about simple matters of fact, and then claim those lies are proof of God. People deny that God is greater than their understanding, and seek to prove His nature, and predict His acts. The fact that such things are laughably poor science is certainly true, but if you are a Christian, you might consider that these are not the real failures of Creationism. I firmly believe that Creationism is the active work of those who wish to ridicule God himself, with lies, and blind trivialities. And the faithful themselves are the targets of this temptation.

Tris.

I think I already stipulated that. My thoughts were that some of the science of evolution presupposes no creator. Given that science requires empirical evidence, any thought of God is tossed out, even when there is circumstantial evidence towards a design paradigm. I think that when the science of evolution is extended beyond its stated definition, the issue of philosophy is a valid argument. If evolution is used to describe the origins of the world, or at least life on this planet, I think that materialism breaks down. But that is my opinion.

Agreed. Again, where is the border between science and philosophy, and has the material philosophy of some invaded their science?

[quote]
What is saddest of all is that “Creationism” takes the greatest gift of all, faith, and seeks to dress it up in garments of bad science, and drag it through the mud of political polemics. What is true of science, that it is irrelevant to matters of faith is true as well of faith, it will not stand in the place of skeptical examination.

[quote]

I agree with you here as well, which is again my whole statement, there are some (on both sides) that let their personal philosophy (faith) get in the way of science.

Not quite sure what you are saying about other dangers. I think a little skeptisim is helpful to a growing faith. Everyone seems to disparage the ‘God says it, I believe it’ line of reasoning. IMO, God doesn’t mind a skeptical question, usually His answers are pretty good ones.

I was with you up to the point of people wishing to ridicule God. I think that is part of our nature while in these tents. All of us like to ridicule God, thank goodness for Grace, n’est pas?

God Bless.

zoot alors!

whaps hissef on da head… Preview… Preview…

John, m’friend, I went through that over in the Second Law thread…it’s under the box marked “pepperoni and mushrooms” with two empty IBC cans. :slight_smile:

You are correct that evolution, or indeed any science, presupposes no divine intervention. But it does not do this out of atheistic motives. Its job – its raison d’etre – is to explain how the world operates in the absence of someone making a change. If you have a field full of rabbits, it is likely those rabbits will eat the timothy and such in the field and will multiply. On the other hand, if between your first observation and your second, N. Anonymous Individual comes along and puts them all in cages, one to a cage, and supplies them with carrots, the timothy will continue to grow and the rabbits will fail to reproduce. But my biological observation that this field of rabbits is likely to eat most of the timothy and to produce baby rabbits is not in error thereby.

One may suppose that God was offended by the sins of the dinosaurs, and therefore cast an asteroid at the Yucatan and opened up the lava flows in Asia. But that is not good science (or even good theology – how can we tell whether the dinosaurs sinned?).

I have stated repeatedly my stance that God does most of His work through pre-planning using natural law and through the action of the humans who follow Him. I see the Big Bang and evolutionary processes as the mechanisms through which He created.

But at rock bottom, the question is one of epistemology. The folks at the Pizza Parlor are not ignorant nor wilfully blinded. The literalists simply give intense credence to the Bible, such that any interpretation of data from the natural world that appears to contradict it as they interpret it must be misinterpretation or faked (perhaps by God). Many of them are not literalists. And given the idea that you have evidence satisfactory to you of the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient God, and that God is said to have inspired an error-free book, where precisely will you put your credence? If I bought all of the “given” clause above, I’d be arguing right alongside the other literalists! You cannot do better than something guaranteed error-free by someone omniscient!

And in the last analysis, when did having faith in God become closed-mindedness, anyway? If all believers are narrow, weird, and irrational, somebody forgot to give Tom, Jodi, Tris., Lib., 'Gator, and me our shots – we seem to have kept some semblance of rationality and broad-mindedness.

Or could it be that the shoe is on the other foot? On a couple of threads here, I’ve seen assertions by various posters (some but not all of whom seem lacking in the skills called for in the presentation of logical argument) of a dogmatic certitude that there is no God. How the heck do they know? In the absence of adequate proof of the existence of God, David and Gaudere’s stance seems reasonable, as does an honest agnosticism. With such proof, we theists do make sense. But it seems to me quite difficult if not impossible to prove the negative. If some people believe in God out of wish-fulfillment fantasy, is it possible some people believe as firmly in his non-existence out of a fear-fulfillment nightmare?

Polycarp wrote:

Timothy is my brother’s name. And rabbits would only eat him if they were carnivorous rabbits, like the one in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Tracer, you may not realize this, but you just provided the final clue to resolving one of the great mysteries of our time: the Tale of Jimmy Carter and the Attack Bunny.

It is of course well known that rabbits have very poor penmanship. This stems partly from their paws’ inability to grasp a pen or pencil well, but also from the fact that in school they tend to focus on multiplication – except, as Bugs pointed out, for those who are involved with hip-hop culture.

It becomes clear that the Attack Bunny simply referred to his notes, which spoke of Timmy (short, of course, for Timothy), and misread them as Jimmy. Seeing a famous Jimmy as he swam across the swamp, he proceeded to attack. Case closed. :wink: