GD Evolution Threads - WHY! WHY! WHY! WHY! WHY!

The BBQ Pit
1

Why do people keep linking to ‘debates’ over at THAT OTHER SITE WHICH I SHALL HENCEFORTH DUB ‘THE ANTI-DOPE’. Do you think that we enjoy banging our heads against the monitor?

Here’s a clue, Jacks and Jills, nobody is fucking listening. Really, they just post the same useless cut and pasted responses over and over again. With the exact same useless logical fallacies. But do the valiant SD Great Debaters learn. NO! We just keep going back again and again, picking at it like some kind of scab. There are now two different threads, the first of which went four pages before finally being mercykilled when somebody realized that nothing useful was going on, over at GD about these ignorant morons. Can we please just fucking stop already?

I actually made the mistake of clicking on the link to FalseOrigins (hoping to maybe find some kind of interesting Polycarp-esque take on integrating religion with scientific study of origins, fool that I am). Aaargh!! Peer reviewed, MY ASS! Does anyone over there even know what that means? Or is it another term, like “entropy”, that people just throw around willy nilly without a damn clue.

I know, let’s invite Veutron over here to enlighten us with his answers.

Hell, let’s just track down Phaedrus and invite him back.

Nobody fucking told me that fighting ignorance would involve, you know, actually dealing with the goddamn ignorant so much.

2

Well, there’s a reason it’s taking longer than we thought…

3

Thanks for the compliment, J. I think what differentiates the majority of SD people (and most Pizza-pushers, unlike the few at Order Here First that have attracted ire) is a commitment to the truth. David B. and I may disagree on many of the fundamentals of our distinct worldviews, but we both are committed to the finding and acceptance of facts and the use of logic to get somewhere from them. We just disagree on the factuality of some narratives.

If you are selective in your evidence, you can prove anything – just throw out the data that contravene your point.

4

One minor correction, though.

I think the Pizza Parlor is not truly the “Anti-Straight Dope.” That would be the LBMB.

5

Setting aside for a moment the misinformation peddled over there, the thing I can’t get past is the appalling color scheme of the message board. My eyes start to hurt after just a few minutes of reading. Of course, maybe that’s the plan…

6

Poly: I just didn’t want you to think I was in any way referring to you. Or even Navigator, who seems pretty ok, even if we disagree. It’s mainly just a few regular posters in their ‘Order Here First’ and ‘Newspaper’ forums who really make my brain want to claw its way out of my head and flee to mexico.

7

There are a lot of topics where ignorance reigns, many of them caused by religious beliefs, that don’t get nearly the ink that CvE does.

The reason is not that people feel a need to eradicate ignorance at all costs. The reason this issue comes up is because of backwards-ass doorknobs in Kansas who want to equate creationism with evolution. Hell, we have someone who a week from now might be voted our president saying the same fucking thing.

My guess is if we had a major presidential candidate claiming that, say, faith healing was as valid as modern medicine, they advocated this as something that should be taught in medical school and public funding would be diverted away from hospitals to achieve this “choice,” and a ton of people were nodding their heads in ignorant approval, there would be more threads about that as well.

Yer pal,
Satan

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, three weeks, two days, 17 hours, 14 minutes and 5 seconds.
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David B used me as a cite!*

8

The Body of Christ is a salad bar? Boy, I am being SO entertained around here lately! Between this and the Tug Ahoy . . . .

9

I’m assuming the OP is referring to me since I’ve done it so often. Here’s why:

I’m frequently astounded that people could have opinions so ill-founded in facts. When something astounds me, I like to tell others about it. I ain’t tryin’ to piss off anyone at the SDMB; I thought you’d all get a good laugh and move on.

Why do I debate the Pizza Noshers? I feel like it’s my duty. I know it’s difficult and may even be a lost cause, but I am one of those who believe that difficult causes, even lost ones, are the only ones worth fighting for.

Besides, what good does it do to preach to the choir?

I consider the SDMB my home board; I post here more than I do anywhere else. The other boards (I post at others besides the PP), I am just visiting.

10

In a bizzaro sorta way, that explains my presence here… :slight_smile:

God Bless ya jab!

11

Agreed on both counts, Andros.

For the most part, The Pizza Parlor is the best and brightest of the quagmire that was the LBMB.

And there’s no sense in feeling like you’re beating your head against the wall–TPP is NOT a massive quest for the truth in the same way that this board is.

The SDMB is a search for science-based facts. The Pizza Parlor is a search for Bible-based faith.

It’s not just a different court, it’s a different GAME.

Just as this board cannot be separated from scientific enquiry, that board cannot be divorced from the Bible.

An understanding of that one concept will keep your Tylenol consumption to a minimum.

-David

12

I so often why people from both sides of this debate seem to have endless energy about it. Over and over again, 'round and 'round. And yet I do not know of any Creationist who has been convinced to become an Evolutionist, or vice-versa, from these endless debates. And because of that, I personally wonder, WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?! (I actually wondered if the OP was going to echo my feelings on this.)

But you know, that’s fine. I don’t actually participate (and rarely peek in on) these type of threads anyway, so big whoop. No biggie for me. So hammer away at each other, call each other morons, try to “reason” with each other, knock yourself out. Whatever floats your boat!

13

Why do we have endless energy? Because they are fighting for Truth and we are fighting against the version of Truth they want to push on us.

As for converting people, when I debate creationists, I am not kidding myself into thinking I’m going to “convert” them. However, there are always others watching any such debate – those are the people I’m really speaking to.

For example: Yesterday I attended a meeting of the local community college’s “Creation Club” because a friend of mine had been invited to speak to them from the “opposing” side that they normally hear.

After the talk, they had time for questions. The club’s sponsor (a math teacher) brought up several issues about evidence. The speaker said he could never produce enough evidence to satisfy the sponsor (they’d tangled before). The sponsor agreed.

When I was called on a few questions later, I pointed out to the audience how this showed that the sponsor was not, contrary to his claims, interested in science. He admitted that no amount of evidence would ever change his mind. This was not science, it was purely religious belief.

I knew I wasn’t going to convince the sponsor. But there were a lot of students in that room (plus other faculty, etc.) who might never have heard it presented that way. Indeed, I saw a number of heads nodding when I was talking (though I have no way of knowing if they already agreed with my position before I said it or not).

14

Good point, David.

I think your sentence…

Could easily be attributed to eiter side. Both sides feel the other side is trying to push the others ‘version of Truth’…

Do you agree or disagree?

15

Jon, those with a knowledge and understanding of science and the nature of scientific inquiry understand that science does not truck with “Truth.” It’s the people who do not understand the core philosophies of critical thinking who do mindlessly accept science as a panacea that present scientific findings as Truth. And I try to educate them as much as (or more than) people who know nothing about science at all.

I don’t think that came out right. Let me know.

16

andros, I think I understand your point.

My thoughts might not have been to clear.

Both sides, may be assuming that the other is trying to ‘push’ truth on them. Whether or not one side actually is ‘pushing’ is lost in the presupposition that they are.

better? worse? same?

17

Gotcha. I missed a step.

Christians (and other theists) who do not reconcile science with their faith are indeed by and large under the misconception that science pushes truth. I think they are wrong, but it may be a matter of semantics.

Science is by definition fluid–theories change, hypotheses are replaced, etc. So when I say to a friend, “evolution is valid,” he may hear “evolution is Truth.” I only mean that evolution fits all the known evidence and is contrasicted by none. But he may think I’m presenting the Answers ([sup]TM[/sup]). If he’s a non-believer, he may accept my word as truth and become a scary dogmatic science-believer (which was my point above). If he’s opposed to science, he may well think I’m “pushing my version of truth.” Which I’m not.

So it’s not the actual findings of science that are really the issue. It’s the underlying philosophy.

The scientist feels that critical thinking and scientific inquiry are the most valid means of undertanding the world. He believes that this fundamental philosophy (whether it be deemed humanism or rationalism or any other -ism) is the best way to figure out what’s going on around him. It is a philosophy that relies on human observation. And yes, much of the time it is a philosophy that does not find room for spirituality.

I think in most cases it is thst philosophy that causes people to be offended by pro-science folks. There are two fundamental ways of looking at the universe, one through a mental, observational lens, the other through a religious, faith-based lens. When I say “evolution is correct, and here’s why,” I am showing not what I believe but how and why I believe it–in effect “pushing” my rationalist view as a “True” way of seeing things. Obviously, if I’m dealing with someone whose fundamnetal way of looking at things is through the lens of the Bible (or Torah, or Qu’ran, or whatever), they will immediately see me as “wrong.”
The converse is a little easier to explain. Non-theists feel Christians and other religious types “push” Truth on them because the simply feel that there is no Truth. Or at least, if there is we cannot know it. If I know, deep down, that mankind cannot know Truth, only approximation of Truth, and someone comes up to me and tells me that they know the Truth, I’m going to be annoyed.

Capisce?

(I’ll be the first to admit my biases, mind you. I’m not atheist, but I do subscribe to the notion that critical thinking and reason are the only means by which we can truly know anything. But then, I also believe that understanding takes more than pure reason.)

18

andros already did a good job of responding to this, but since it was directed to me, I’ll answer as well.

Navigator said:

For the reasons andros has listed, I disagree.

I do think that some creationists may think evolution is something we’re trying to push on them. Indeed, they often make the claim that it is a religious belief, etc. However, they are wrong.

19

which was my point, David.

20

Dunno if it’s the same thing, but I am a former Creationist.

I was brought up in deep East Texas-- all I was ever taught was that “God did it.” For 20 years, when I thought about it at all, I assumed that man’s origin was exactly as described in Genesis.

Now, at 32, I have been an Evolutionist for several years. Of course, I wasn’t swayed by the debates on this, or any other, message board, but I was swayed by rational and intelligent argument, which I guess is pretty much the same thing.

Engineering seems to be in my blood–I always want to know the How’s and the Why’s of everything. How does this work, why is that xplarf more stable than that other xplarf…that sort of thing.

Don’t get me wrong–just any old explanation wouldn’t do. I was very resistant to Evolutionary Theory from the get-go. “But the Bible says…”

Eventually, the sheer amount of credible evidence convinced me. And not just the evidence either–the GAPS in the evidence helped me decide that, while standard Evolution may not explain it all, it is certainly closer to the truth than God’s poofing it all into existance in one fell swoop.

Face it, anything that seeks to explain something as vast and far-reaching as Evolution does-- based on remaining physical evidence-- will have the occasional hole.

Had it been a nice neat package, full of easy answers, I would have smelled fraud and never accepted it.

So yeah-- it is possible for someone to change their position based on reasonable argument…the first step is to remove all those silly notions of what Evolution is and isn’t.

But it ain’t easy, and it isn’t fast. For me to change my mind on this one issue required me to change my mind on several others–including the Literal Biblical Infallibility idea that was ingrained in me since earliest childhood.

Odd as it may seem, Evolution was my own personal Apple– it was this issue, more than any other, that taught me to think for myself, to question pretty much everything, and to seek the truth.

So, while I may be cast out of the Garden of easy answers, I think that I have profited by it.

-David