Why does the Supreme Court’s website specifically say that it is NOT the highest court of appeal for Scottish criminal matters?
“The Supreme Court hears some criminal appeals, from other jurisdictions in the UK but not from Scotland.”
Because, as I’ve repeatedly stated, it isn’t.
Now, drop the irrelevant subject of Scottish criminal appeals and explain to me why the Supreme Court isn’t the highest criminal court in the UK, including telling us all which court you consider higher.
Clue - neither the HCJ nor the ECHR are UK courts. Neither are relevant to this discussion. I don’t disagree with you in any way about the Scottish justice system, but that’s not what started this discussion. It was about the UK justice system, of which the SC is the highest court.
It is not the highest criminal court in the UK.
It is the highest criminal court of appeal for England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
As it states on its website:
“The Supreme Court hears some criminal appeals, from other jurisdictions in the UK but not from Scotland.”
As far as UK criminal justice has a senior court, it has one for appeals from Scotland, and another for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The two are equal level for UK criminal law. There is no appeal from one to the other on criminal cases.
That is your error. The appeal court of the HCJ is the highest criminal court in the UK for Scottish criminal cases. Scotland is part of the UK. The HCJ is a UK court.There is no appeal to the SC over criminal cases, only over the administration of justice.
As it says on the SC website.
Because the SC cannot hear criminal cases from Scotland as for Scottish criminal law cases the highest court of criminal appeal is the appeal court of the HCJ.
No court is higher in criminal cases than the appeal court of the HCJ in Scotland, and the SC in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
As it says on the Supreme Court Website:
"Q. What is the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court over criminal matters in Scotland?
A. The main role of the UK Supreme Court is to hear appeals from courts in the United Kingdom’s three legal systems: England and Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.
The Supreme Court acts as the highest court for civil appeals from the Court of Session in Scotland. The highest court for criminal appeals however remains as the Court of Appeal in Scotland.
The Supreme Court hears some criminal appeals, from other jurisdictions in the UK but not from Scotland.
However, the Supreme Court also determines “devolution issues” (as defined by the Scotland Act 1998). These are legal proceedings about the powers of the three devolved administrations. Devolution issues were previously heard by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and most are about compliance with rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, brought into national law by the Scotland Act 1998 and the Human Rights Act 1998.
Let’s see how simple I can make this. If you are convicted under British law, you appeal to the Supreme Court. If you are convicted under Scottish law, you appeal to the HCJ.
The SC is the highest court in the UK. The HCJ is the highest court in Scotland.
However, Scotland is a part of the UK - the UK is not a part of Scotland, it’s not an even thing. Until and unless the HCJ has jurisdiction in the UK, in British law, it cannot be the highest court in the UK - it’s not even a court in the UK! It’s a regional court who’s powers, and very existence - like the laws it upholds - are in the gift of the UK parliament.
Your argument is as absurd as saying that, because I can’t appeal a fine based on a local by-law to the Supreme Court, my local magistrate’s court is the highest court in the UK.
Further education for you from the Supreme Court Website:
The Supreme Court, as well as being the final court of appeal, plays an important role in the development of United Kingdom law.
As an appeal court, The Supreme Court cannot consider a case unless a relevant order has been made in a lower court.
The Supreme Court:
•is the final court of appeal for all United Kingdom civil cases, and criminal cases from England, Wales and Northern Ireland
•hears appeals on arguable points of law of general public importance
•concentrates on cases of the greatest public and constitutional importance
•maintains and develops the role of the highest court in the United Kingdom as a leader in the common law world
The Supreme Court hears appeals from the following courts in each jurisdiction:
England and Wales
•The Court of Appeal, Civil Division
•The Court of Appeal, Criminal Division
•(in some limited cases) the High Court
Scotland
•The Court of Session
Click here to download a factual guide to The Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court in Scottish Appeals: Human rights and the Scotland Act 2012 (PDF).
Northern Ireland
•The Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland
•(in some limited cases) the High Court
Please click here to download a full guide to appealing to The Supreme Court (PDF).
Note that the SC says that it accepts appeals from the Court of Session (the Scottish Civil Court) but does not list the Appeal Court of the HCJ. This is because it does not accept such appeals; if it did do you not think that it would say so on its own website?
What court are you maintaining is higher than the Supreme Court in the UK? All I can see from your posts is a load of irrelevant bullshit about regional courts.
Are enormously intransigent people on message boards the real reason the referendum was a solid NO vote?
Incorrect. There is NO ‘British’ criminal law as such. There are Scottish Laws, English and Welsh Laws, and Northern Irish laws. and there are laws that apply to the whole of the UK.
If an offence is committed in Scotland under Scottish law specifically, or under UK wide law, the matter is tried in Scottish courts. This applies to common law and statute law offences.
If I, an English man, kill someone in Scotland I will be tried under Scottish law for the common law offence of murder. If I break a UK wide law in Scotland, I will be tried in Scotland under statute law. If I step over the border and commit those offences, I will be tried by English courts. In the first cases my final criminal appeal would be to the appeal court of the HCJ. If in the latter two cases it would be to the SC. No criminal offence committed in Scotland can be tried in English courts and no criminal offence committed in England can be tried in Scottish courts. The two criminal justice systems are separate even though they enforce many UK wide laws.
In criminal matters there are two equal but separate final courts of appeal. The Supreme Court for England and Wales, And Northern Ireland, and the Appeal Court of the HCJ for Scotland. There is no criminal appeal between these two separate systems.
As it says on the SC Website:
The Supreme Court, as well as being the final court of appeal, plays an important role in the development of United Kingdom law.
As an appeal court, The Supreme Court cannot consider a case unless a relevant order has been made in a lower court.
The Supreme Court:
•is the final court of appeal for all United Kingdom civil cases, and criminal cases from England, Wales and Northern Ireland
•hears appeals on arguable points of law of general public importance
•concentrates on cases of the greatest public and constitutional importance
•maintains and develops the role of the highest court in the United Kingdom as a leader in the common law world
The Supreme Court hears appeals from the following courts in each jurisdiction:
England and Wales
•The Court of Appeal, Civil Division
•The Court of Appeal, Criminal Division
•(in some limited cases) the High Court
Scotland
•The Court of Session
Click here to download a factual guide to The Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court in Scottish Appeals: Human rights and the Scotland Act 2012 (PDF).
Northern Ireland
•The Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland
•(in some limited cases) the High Court
Please click here to download a full guide to appealing to The Supreme Court (PDF).
There are no “English” courts or laws, only British and Scottish ones at the criminal level.
What court do you maintain is higher that the SC in the UK criminal justice system?
False. In the UK criminal justice system, the Supreme Court is the highest court.
As your original question in the other thread, that you quoted earlier, referred to the UK, Scottish law is irrelevant. No-one here disagrees with your posts about Scottish law and Scottish courts, we just wonder why you keep posting about them when A) no-one has disagreed with you and B) you still refuse to answer a simple question about British courts.
You do require Education.
There are no British Courts, save the SC itself.
There are three systems of courts in the UK:
Courts of England and Wales
Courts of Scotland
Courts of Northern Ireland
There is no British court system as such.
Here’s where your own cite states that the SC is the highest court in the UK. Care to explain why you continue to maintain otherwise?
Are they lying? Are they mistakes, and need you to march in, blue-painted and be-tartaned, to explain why?
Or, just possibly, do you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, no understanding of Scotland’s actual legal position within the UK, and no understanding that, as a region, it is necessarily at a lower level than the Union as a whole?
There are no British courts, save the one court that we are discussing, and which you have repeatedly claimed isn’t British? Well, that works for me. If you really want to claim that the other courts that have jurisdiction over 2 or 3 of the regions, and the laws that apply to 3 or even all 4, don’t count as British, go for it. I mean, you’re wrong, but it’s irrelevant to this argument.
But now you’ve admitted the SC is British, and provided a cite that it’s the highest court in the UK, explain again to me how I was wrong to say that it was the highest court in the UK.
Cites
“The Courts of the United Kingdom are separated into three separate jurisdictions, the Courts of England and Wales, Courts of Scotland and the Courts of Northern Ireland, as the United Kingdom does not have a single unified judicial system.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courts_of_England_and_
Beware, your general ignorance is showing.
I have never claimed it was not British. Please provide a cite to the source of that misconception.
I have clearly stated that the SC is the senior court for civil and administrative matters for the whole of the UK and for criminal cases for England and Wales and Northern Ireland but not for Scotland.
All the laws are British as they apply in part or all of Britain, but they are enforced in three separate criminal systems, England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.
The SC is the highest court in the UK for all except Scottish criminal cases- as is clearly stated on the Supreme Court website.
Hardly. Providing cites that say what I’ve already said doesn’t show my ignorance.
I am still ignorant of one thing, though - which court you consider to be the highest court in the UK. Your own cite shows the SC claims to be that, but since you have refused to take back your claim that I was wrong to claim it, you must disagree with them.
Why do you disagree with your own cite, and what is the correct answer to the question “what is the highest criminal court in the UK”?
Utterly fascinating stuff, guys, but it would really help out us following along if you could say the exact same stuff 20-30 more times.