Crying at work

[Bricker]

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
Instead of declaring that credibility is lost due to the statement you quoted, perhaps you might first have done some research yourself. It is only fair.

It is, in point of fact, a completely valid claim and your assertion that it undercuts credibility is based on… what cite?

This article details the scientifically conducted research into emotional tears including the breakdown of chemicals released. Cite.
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It’s unclear to me where in that article you find support for the claim that emotional tears produce toxins.

The article says:

On the other hand, emotional tears have 21 percent more protein than reflex tears. It isn’t yet clear which proteins these are, and certainly not why they are more abundant in emotional tears.

Not only that, but the methodology described in the collection of tears is less than rigorous:

He began by trying to figure out how to get his hands on them. Reflex tears were easy: just hurl onions in a blender and take a sniff. But, he found, “No one could think of any discreet way to elicit emotional tears in the lab.”
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Eventually they hit on the scheme of showing sad movies to volunteers. Even then, there were problems. At first they planned to have staff members sit next to the weeping viewers with a test tube and harvest the tears. That turned out to be too much like my grandmother’s trick: having people lunge at you with a test tube dries you up as quickly as coveting a fish. Then they designed a set of tear-gathering goggles, but those didn’t work unless they were custom-fitted, and funding wouldn’t stretch that far. Ultimately, they just issued people test tubes and gave them the responsibility for collecting their own tears.
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The average contributor coughed up – no, make that contributed – three tears, though one empathetic person produced 50. Nearly a third couldn’t cry at all.

Now, all that having been said, I’m perfectly open to correction on this point, and if it turns out that my off-the-cuff comments were off-base, I’ll be happy to retract them.

Ironic that someone with the word " Science " under his member name doesn’t know how to prove good science. The fact that you don’t believe something to be true, and say that in a post, undercuts the validity of all Dopers who have that title under their member name. I, and many others, like to view the posts written by SDSAB as having a bit more heft to them when it comes to declarative statements like the one made above.

I have no professional qualifications in hard science, and don’t pretend to. When I produce a report for the Mailbag, I do a great deal of research, and even then, I don’t publish with the expectation that an error will never be discovered.

When I post here, as a user, my posts are potentially just as wrong as any other posters’ in areas for which I have no particular expertise.

So, in summation: I can’t speak for any other SDSAB member. But if you’re reading my posts and expecting some generalized scientific authority… stop. It ain’t there.

[phouka]

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
It is possible to train yourself not to express emotions, so I think if you do practice, you’d be able to postpone the tears until you were alone.
[/QUOTE]

Considering the health consequences for suppressing emotions [cite here], I think that’s a very inadvisable stance to take.
From the National Institutes of Health:

Studies have demonstrated that diminished emotional expressiveness is associated with health risks. For example, research has linked repression (low anxiety and high defensiveness) and suppression (deliberate withholding of the expression of negative emotions) with faster cancer progression and shorter survival (Bahnson, 1981; Fox, Harper, Hyner, & Lyle, 1994; Giese-Davis & Spiegel, 2003; Greer, 1985; Greer & Morris, 1975; Gross, 1989; Kneier & Temoshok, 1984). In addition, an epidemiological study found that subjects likely to suppress anger were at greater mortality risk from all causes across age, sex, and education groups (Julius, Cottington, & Johnson, 1986). In the Julius study, suppressed anger significantly interacted with elevated blood pressure (BP) to predict the highest mortality risk (Julius et al., 1986). Three emotion inhibition processes may be associated with psychological and physiological indices of health in metastatic breast cancer patients: suppression, repression, and restraint of hostility (Giese-Davis et al., 2002; Giese-Davis, Sephton, Abercrombie, Duran, & Spiegel, 2004; Giese-Davis & Spiegel, 2001). Because cardiovascular measures are not often studied in cancer patients and may provide additional evidence of an increase in allostatic load (Giese-Davis et al., 2006; McEwen, 2004), we collected and calculated autonomic measures: BP, heart rate (HR), mean arterial pressure (MAP), pulse pressure (PP), and rate pressure product (RPP). Because DBP and SBP have each been shown to be predictors of cardiac events in older adults (Domanski et al., 2002; Psaty et al., 2001), we specifically examined their relationship to targeted emotion-regulation measures.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people, because they have not found themselves so tried, burdened, or stressed, can so easily condemn the reactions of others. We have stories of relatives dying, friends being killed, bosses turning psycho hosebeasts, and of chronic, acute stress taking its toll, and yet we still have posters who think those who cry in public must be in some way deficient and judge them as immature, weak, or manipulative.

Take a moment, and consider the situation without hostility. Use a measure of compassion before drawing a conclusion. Life is hard enough without the added, meritless, unkind judgments piled on.

[Chimera]

[QUOTE=phouka]
It never ceases to amaze me that some people, because they have not found themselves so tried, burdened, or stressed, can so easily condemn the reactions of others. We have stories of relatives dying, friends being killed, bosses turning psycho hosebeasts, and of chronic, acute stress taking its toll, and yet we still have posters who think those who cry in public must be in some way deficient and judge them as immature, weak, or manipulative.
[/QUOTE]

To reword what I said earlier in this thread and recently said in another thread.

For each of us, for Generic You out there;

Take a moment to own your own emotions. The display of negative - and to you undesirable - emotions in other people is not a valid excuse to summon up your own negative emotions and inflict them on those people.

“He’s angry, so I have a right to be angry too and to punish him for HIS anger” or
“She’s crying and I don’t like it, so I have a right to be a petty asshole about it”

Is not The Way.

[overlyverbose]

Wow. I was just reminded of this thread a few minutes ago when I almost teared up in my boss’ office, faked a sneeze and got a hold of myself and dried it up before the tears went anywhere. Funny how I’m able to do that with people I don’t care about, such as those at work, but not with my husband.

For what it’s worth, the tears had more to do with workplace frustration than anything else. I have been waiting for a promised promotion to materialize for quite some time. After getting the run around for about three months, during a regular meeting with my manager, I just asked point blank if it was a realistic thing to expect. The answer? “Well, you certainly deserve it,” then more run around.

Argh.

[gigi]

I’ve felt like crying twice at this employer so far (different jobs). One was when a co-worker and guy I’m basically friends with snapped at me in a meeting. It was a small group and we all get along so it was a real shock. I went quiet and had to really concentrate on not letting any crying symptoms out.

The other was when I was going through some routine accounting stuff and there in the transaction report which everyone with a given access set-up could see, was comp information for me and a set of co-workers (we were all part of the same project). The frustration of that being out there, and permanently, sent me spinning. I just couldn’t believe it, and that’s the kind of thing that gets me crying out of sheer powerless frustration. But I did manage to control that too.

I would definitely try to make it to a private place like my office or our one-person bathrooms, so I guess it would make me uncomfortable to see crying out in the common area. But that’s how I feel about a lot of emotions.

[Bricker]

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
Instead of declaring that credibility is lost due to the statement you quoted, perhaps you might first have done some research yourself. It is only fair.

It is, in point of fact, a completely valid claim and your assertion that it undercuts credibility is based on… what cite?

This article details the scientifically conducted research into emotional tears including the breakdown of chemicals released. Cite.

If you have clear proof that the work done by Dr. William Frey is in fact invalid and innacurate and the research done by his team at St. Paul Ramsey Medical Center in Minneapolis is not good science, please be so kind as to provide cite.

[/QUOTE]

I have started this thread in GQ to explore the issue further.

Of interest is the first response, which says:

[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
I’ve found no credible evidence that tears help shed toxins. A particular “holistic” nursing journal makes this claim, but backs it up with no evidence.

This, combined with my own knowledge of tear physiology, makes me conclude that tears have no role in relieving the body of toxins.

In humans, it is the liver and the kidneys which do the vast, vast majority of the work in relieving the body of toxic ingestions and breakdown products.
[/QUOTE]

If your research produces any peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary, then, I am sure that Qadgop and others in that thread would also be interested in seeing it.

[Bricker]

My last cross-post from the GQ thread, which I offer only because I thought there was a certain harshness in Cartooniverse’s rebuke of my claim, and so I believe that additional evidence is of value:

[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train]
A Google search on “crying release toxins” turns up tons of sites that make the claim that crying from stress, anger, fear, et cetera releases toxins. If you read through the actual sites many of them state that this is backed by “a medical study,” “many studies have shown,” “researchers find that…”, et cetera. Not one of these (at least, in the first four pages of results) cites any actual published studies, much less controlled experiments or peer-reviewed surveys. A quick search on PubMed shows nothing about crying and toxins. Given the lack of physiological mechanism for extracting said toxins from the blood and lymphatic systems (which is primarily done by the kidneys and liver) I’d call this claim nonsense.
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Based on that, unless the tide changes, I don’t believe I’ll be withdrawing my opinion.

As always, of course, I am open to doing so in the face of new evidence.

[Frank]

[QUOTE=Bricker]
My last cross-post from the GQ thread, …
[/QUOTE]

Bricker, please keep the cross-posts to a minimum. I do not believe it is appropriate to introduce posts by a different poster in a different thread which the countered poster may or may not be aware of as counters to posts in this thread.

You’re welcome to attempt to tangle me up in my own syntax, if you like, but something about this doesn’t seem right to me. Perhaps if you re-phrased it in your own words.

[Bricker]

[QUOTE=Frank]
Bricker, please keep the cross-posts to a minimum. I do not believe it is appropriate to introduce posts by a different poster in a different thread which the countered poster may or may not be aware of as counters to posts in this thread.

You’re welcome to attempt to tangle me up in my own syntax, if you like, but something about this doesn’t seem right to me. Perhaps if you re-phrased it in your own words.
[/QUOTE]

No, no, I gotcha. That was the last one. Cross my heart and hope to… eh… not cry.

[phouka]

I realize that Wikipedia is not an ideal cite, but there were several mentions in its article on crying that match what others have tried to communicate in this thread.

First, emotional crying (as opposed to crying due to eye irritation) tends to make us feel better.

Due to the chemical composition of emotional tears, some scientists have hypothesized that a function of crying is to rid the body of stress hormones. William H. Frey II, a biochemist at the University of Minnesota, proposed in his publication “Crying; The Mystery of Tears” that people feel better after crying due to the elimination of hormones associated with stress[10], specifically adrenocorticotropic hormone.

Second, the chemical make up of tears shed while under stress is different from tears shed at other times.

Tears produced during emotional crying have a chemical composition which differs from other types of tear. They contain significantly greater quantities of hormones prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone, Leu-enkephalin[7] and elements potassium and manganese.[8]

Cites:
7.) Skorucak A. “The Science of Tears.” ScienceIQ.com.
8.) Why do we Cry,Walter, Chip,Source:Scientific American Mind; Dec2006, Vol. 17 Issue 6, p44, 8p,ISSN 1555-2284
10.) Supporting Alzheimer's research - HealthPartners Institute personal page of Frey WH with quote from his book

From Wikipedia’s article on adrenocorticotropic hormone:

ACTH acts through the stimulation of cell surface ACTH receptors, which are primarily located on the adrenocortical cells. ACTH stimulates the cortex of the adrenal gland and boosts the synthesis of corticosteroids, mainly glucocorticoids but also sex steroids (androgens).

Adrenaline, cortisone, and their related hormones are produced in greater quantities when a person is under stress. Chronic stress leads to a build up of these hormones, which can have toxic effects. While the liver and kidneys are responsible for the vast majority of hormone breakdown and removal, I don’t think it’s a huge leap to see that tear production under stress could provide the body with a supplemental route for removal.

[Bricker]

[QUOTE=phouka]
I realize that Wikipedia is not an ideal cite, but there were several mentions in its article on crying that match what others have tried to communicate in this thread.

First, emotional crying (as opposed to crying due to eye irritation) tends to make us feel better.

Second, the chemical make up of tears shed while under stress is different from tears shed at other times.

Cites:
7.) Skorucak A. “The Science of Tears.” ScienceIQ.com.
8.) Why do we Cry,Walter, Chip,Source:Scientific American Mind; Dec2006, Vol. 17 Issue 6, p44, 8p,ISSN 1555-2284
10.) Supporting Alzheimer's research - HealthPartners Institute personal page of Frey WH with quote from his book

From Wikipedia’s article on adrenocorticotropic hormone:

Adrenaline, cortisone, and their related hormones are produced in greater quantities when a person is under stress. Chronic stress leads to a build up of these hormones, which can have toxic effects. While the liver and kidneys are responsible for the vast majority of hormone breakdown and removal, I don’t think it’s a huge leap to see that tear production under stress could provide the body with a supplemental route for removal.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you could add this information to the GQ thread and garner some feedback from there?

[phouka]

Sure thing!