Cuba and lies, again

Great Debates
41

Since you’re wandering off into “child abuse” I’ll show you the evidence. Since the early 70’s the Cuban government has instituted a policy of forced child labor on children as young as 11. It is called “Escuela al Campo”, where children are sent for 45 days to perform unpaid compulsory farm labor. During those 45 days they are out of contact with their parents and completely under the supervision of the government. The labor ranges from planting and harvesting sugar cane, to working in farm construction projects. Let me emphasize, this program is compulsory, it is unpaid, and it begins in the 7th grade, meaning children as young as 11 are forced to participate. I call that government sponsored child abuse.

And please don’t tell me how much worse children in other parts of the world have it, that kind of comparative misery only works when you’re not the one living it.

42

Aren’t we talking about sexual abuse? Are those kids been molested in these camps? Knowingly and with the support of the Cuban government? Yes? No? Could happen? You have no idea?

Pls. don’t jump into an entirely different topic. I am not the one to defend Castro, but why use lies and smear tactics when you can use the truth?

43

Excuse, but are you accusing me of lying? Or of using smear tactics? I responded to a specific point in sailor’s post were he mentions “child abuse”. Specifically where he says:

As I did not see a reference to sexual my comment was not addressed to that concern. If you want to argue that forced labor of children by the Cuban government is not child abuse you’re free to do so.

44

Nice strawman.

45

bayonet1976, I would think from the context of the post and the thread that it was clear that I was referring to sexual abuse but I am more than happy to clarify: Iwas referring to child sexual abuse.

I am not making any apologies for the communist system or for its lack of personal freedoms. There is no excuse for that.

46

Ok, I’ve been watching this one for a bit, and there seem to be a couple of misconceptions that I am in a position to perhaps help clear up.

Firstly, regarding sex tourism. No government that I have ever heard of, the Netherlands, Thailand, Cuba, etc., has participated in advertising/selling sex services. No ministry of tourism, no department of tourism, anywhere in the world has produced, or contributed, as far as I have ever seen, to a pamphlet which promises sex for money. Advertising for sex tourists is entirely the realm of private individuals. A good portion of it is simply word-of-mouth from individuals who had visited a location and wrote a report about it and circulated it in the sex tourism community. Providing the services upon arrival is the work of private entities as well.

Governments don’t have to participate for their country to become a stop on the sex tourism circuit. This is a unique market segment where demand so far outstrips supply that all a government has to do to get these types of tourists is to decriminalize prostitution. Adult, consensual prostitution. That’s it. They don’t need to build bordellos with government money. Don’t need to provide government-subsidised daycare for mothers who decide to become prostitutes. They don’t need to subsidize any aspect of the industry. The market will provide, in spades. Eliminate the biggest source of potential risks with the transactions(legal entanglements) and bam, instant sex tourism. Add in factors like poverty, which makes the easy money from prostitution very attractive to the poor population of an area, thereby increasing providers who are willing to provide the service at a low price, and you grow into a more attractive “stop” on the sex tourism circuit. It should be noted that the US is also a “stop” on the circuit. Simply a stop for those with more disposable income to spend on their hobby and for those willing to run more legal risks.

Now, Cuba specifically is an interesting case because they are the only Communist state I am aware of which has decriminalized prostitution. Well… Sorta. The reality is that Cuba has, like many states, a complex legal framework regarding prostitution. Prostitution on an individual basis, one person, acting on their own, approaching and soliciting another person, also acting on their own, is legal. Bordellos and other organized services are not. Still, despite the illegality of bordellos and organized services, reports indicate, and advertising indicates, that private residences are frequently used as mini-resorts for sex tourists. Owned and operated by the homeowner in many instances. I don’t know if they strike deals with the local prostitutes to provide services for any renters, but the advertising promises a place to stay as well as a steady stream of prostitutes. Repeats of your favorites can be arranged, or girls on rotation. I am not sure how effective the state could be at stopping this kind of activity. A homeowner sublets their house for a week and women visit the tourist who rented it. Proving the homeowner contracted those women to provide sex services to the renter can be difficult in a business which is fundamentally cash-only. Plus they often ask customers to leave the house and meet the provider in a public place. Some sort of recognition process is arranged and then the provider follows the customer back to the cabana. Unless you can prove it was arranged beforehand, meeting a woman in a public place and taking her back to your rented cabana is perfectly legal and the pre-arranged nature is difficult to detect.

A sticker situation arises when you talk about sex services which take place in the larger resorts. The state, and therefore the people, still own the infrastructure that private parties must use if they wish to exercise their right to prostitute themselves, or visit a prostitute. This seems to be a catch-22 in a communist society. The government is involved in vitually everything that goes on. The businesses are government-owned, as are the hotels, and the employees are government employees. However, a woman could set up a flower shop inside a hotel lobby, and then, when approached by a handsom gentleman with an attractive offer, perfectly legally decide to accompany him to his room. Bringing a woman in from the outside is still normally disallowed though because intent of bringing a native back to the hotel is pretty clear. Plus you can’t tell if the provider and customer were hooked up by a third party(which would be illegal). If they met in a lobby and the transaction only involved the two of them, then it would be legal. It has created a situation where telling the difference between the government merely enabling private citizens to carry out their own affairs, including selling themselves if they so desire, and the government actively having a hand in these transactions, seems to be a bit sticky.

With regards to underage sex tourism and selling underage persons into sex slavery. I’m afraid I don’t buy the assertion that the Cuban government is complicit in these acts in the least. I’ve never seen a sex tourism guide which mentioned anything at all like “if you’re having trouble finding an underage prostitute or sex slave, drop by the local chamber of commerce and ask for their help finding one.” In fact, I’ve never seen governmental entities referred to in any positive fashion in ANY sex tourism guide.

As I mentioned earlier, the sex trade is seriously market-driven, perhaps one of the purest examples of a market niche with minimal governmental intervention. Cuba has a supply of people who live in poverty and that is all a country needs before the market forces will tempt those people, and certain unscrupulous flesh-peddlers, to sell their bodies as they would a natural resource such as oil. Sex with a minor is most definitely illegal in Cuba and the sex tourist community is well aware of this fact. Cuba’s problems with underage prostitution and trafficking of sex slaves are mostly due to the poverty of the population as well as their status as a tourist destination, which means lots of traffic in and out of the country to various points abroad. Add in the desire of a significant portion of the population to leave the island and you can get a situation where someone comes to the island, promises a young woman a better life in their country, bribes some officials to look the other way, then that woman becomes a sex slave.

Russia has seen a growth of similar issues since the collapse of the USSR and the desperation of their citizens to escape the poverty has led to a rise in “mail-order brides”(women selling themselves, basically) and an increase in some unscrupulous assholes selling women and minors against their will.

I have seen no evidence the Cuban government aids the sex tourism market, nor do I believe the market needs such aid. There is evidence the government is actively working towards preventing the sexual exploitation of minors as well as trafficking of minors. Reports in the sex tourism community warn tourists to double-check id and age of any prostitutes engaged during a visit to Cuba.

Anyway, cites available on request, but please request them through email(mine is listed) and give me a few days to respond. I don’t keep this stuff on hand, but I know where to find it if necessary.

Enjoy,
Steven

47

Posted by bayonet1976:

If I were a parent, I would call it something else. I would call it a free summer vacation – not for the kids, for the parents! In fact . . . maybe we in the States could learn something from this!

But this thread is getting sidetracked. We’re all arguing about just how horrible the Cuban regime is or isn’t. Let’s begin with the assumption that it is a repressive dictatorship, and go from there: Is it good or bad for the Cubans that the U.S. should impose such measures as a trade-and-travel embargo? I say it’s bad. If we normalize diplomatic relations and open the door to trade, then American wealth and American ideas will . . . not flood, but at any rate start to trickle, into Cuba. How long can the regime survive that? Look, we should want Communism in Cuba to fall the way it did in the relatively prosperous countries of Eastern Europe, not the way it did in the impoverished Soviet Union. The richer Cuba is when Castro finally leaves the scene, the more peaceful the transition is likely to be, and the better off it will be afterwards.

Also, please bear in mind that the end of Communism in Cuba does not necessarily imply the end of socialism in Cuba. The Cuban people are very educated, very political, and for the most part very commited to socialism in one form or another. What they want is more political democracy, which is not incompatible with a socialist or social-democratic economic system – just ask the Swedes. It is not likely the Cubans will be content to become “just like” the United States or “just like” any existing Latin American society.

48

[hijack] hmmm, at this point I am left wondering in retrospect if the reason the Moscow hotel administration wanted my then-boyfriend (whom I met in the States nearly a year before, BTW) to leave ID at the front desk before going up to my room was because they thought he was a gigolo? (He would be quite amused at that prospect.) Or was it the usual all-encompassing, simple Russian state-operated nosiness?

49

Man, I do hope you’re kidding kere. I’ll just assume that you are and leave it at that.

While I agree that lifting the embargo would in the end benefit some Cubans, I think it’s naive to think that lifting it would automatically open Cuba up to “American wealth, and American ideas”. Cuba has been open for over 12 years now to the free market, and media of Europe and Canada. The regime has actually become more repressive than before, shifting its ideology to an even more hard line stance. Keep in mind, with or without the embargo, as you mentioned, Cuba is repressive dictatorship, the government completely controls everything that goes on there, including whose ideas and wealth come into the country.

I’m going to disagree with your assesment here of Cuban people being for the most part very commited to socialism. They’ve been living with socialism, yes the Cuban system is called socialism not communism, for over 40 years and have seen first hand what a dismal failure it is. To illustrate, the US Interest Section in Havana recives 500,000 applications every year for visas to the US. These are applications for families not just individuals, considering that any kind of open dissent in Cuba has serious repercussions, and that these applications must be filed in person, in Havana, you can extrapolate that out of a population of 11,000,000 a significant portion would be very happy to leave the socialist system behind.

I agree that Cuban’s want political democracy and freedom, but they also want economic freedom.

50

The problem is that once they become “free” the capitalism will not be able to keep state services since their economy is in shambles…

I wouldn't say its a DISMAL failure as far as Latin America goes... they certainly have better than average health and education than their southern neighbors. Which is one reason for the embargo... make sure it didn't work in the first place. (I still think it wouldnt work with or without embargo... )
51

Let us please stay on topic which is whether president Bush lied when he said prostitution is “a modern form of slavery which is encouraged by the Cuban government”. Slavery implies people are forced without their consent to perform services without compensation (minors are incapable of giving consent for becoming prostitutes). The notion that cuba has slave prostitutes is preposterous for anyone who is not totally ignorant. Asked for evidence, White House spokesman Scott McClellan hurriedly changed the subject and said he could hear his mother calling him for dinner and had to leave.

Mtgman, thanks for your long post which is very informative and well done.

52

Oh it absolutely is a dismal failure. Cuba led the region in every measure pre-1958. I’ve posted relevant links in discussions about Cuba before, which show that UN data ranked Cuba tops in the region (excluding the US but not Canada), pre-1958 in education, health care, and life expectancy. It is hardly surprising that it remains so in Latin America. However Costa Rica, which pre-1958 ranked among the bottom for countries in the region now matches Cuba in every regard, and has done so without 45 years of a repressive dictatorship.

I have to apologize for not posting the links here, I’ll search for them and post them later today.

53

Cubans in the US for the most part are hard line Republicans…“They know the monster they are dealing with”…While I can admire some of the traits of such Democrats as ex-Prez Jimmy Carter who has visited Cuba and spoken out against the current stand, they do not understand well what they are dealing with…As with any bloody dictator, there is nothing to compromise with the leaders of such a regime…Evil is evil is evil…you do not make compromises with them…

I believe Bush to be right … is he wanting votes while at it?..of course, who wouldn’t…

On the issue of the ladies of the night…I have seen no evidence to support that…but both sides make up a great deal…

It was Democrat John F. Kennedy who said he would support the Bay of Pigs invasion (in 1961) with the US Air Force…when the much needed Air Force failed to materialize, the invading Cuban Army got pin down and slaughtered…Cubans remember that as well…

54

I actually find it amusing when anyone starts pointing fingers at governments for encouraging sex tourism. Quite frankly, if a government entity got involved in the industry you’d see a massive DROP in sex tourism. You see, johns don’t trust governments. The less the government and authorities are involved in their activities, they happier they are. Cuba has been actually marked DOWN in reviews because they hassle people bringing women back to resorts and such. It remains a popular spot because of the low prices and side benefits such as Cuban cigars and pretty beaches. Last I heard was between 1500 and 2000 for a week at a privately-owned beachside bungalow and pretty much constant “companionship”, same woman or rotating women. Contrast this with $300 in the US, just for companionship of one woman for one hour.

Nope, government involvement is a turn-off not a turn-on. Plus, the legal entanglements grow. Imagine coming back to Cuba a year after your last visit and having the customs officer checking your passport say “Ah yes, Mr Smith. You banged 37 hoes last time you were here. Two of them got pregnant. Here is your bill for the abortions/child support.” Quite frankly, that is a sex tourist’s nightmare. Deal only with providers directly, deal in cash, don’t even use your real name. That is how the game is played. Booking a trip through an agency affiliated with a government? No way. About the only government involvement sex tourists tolerate are things like provider licensing and mandatory health screenings for providers. Even then there is a strong aversion to licensed providers because they may, at some point, be asked to rat you out by the state. A brochure or invitation from a state agency, or even someone affiliated with a state agency, to come enjoy some hoes? Major willies. Don’t even get started on the kind of red flags that fly when such a brochure offers activity with minors.

I have yet to see any evidence, either presented by anyone here or in the guides to sex tourism for the area circulated in the community, that the Cuban government encourages even vanilla sex tourism. Any aid the government, or government-owned infrastructure, provides is nothing more than what they provide other private citizens. The ability to interact with tourists and sell them flowers or sell them other services. In fact, prostitution is MORE restricted than other Cuban service provider/Tourist transactions because third parties are disallowed. Still, the natives are free to engage in consensual sex with tourists, even for money. So what can you do to stop the sex trade without stripping this freedom from the people?

The idea that the Cuban government supports or encourages child prostitution is even less well supported. As mentioned, overt support would result in no customers, so we’re down to indirect support. To show the Cuban government complicit in sexual abuse of minors or complicit in trafficking of women the following assertion should be supported.

There exists a service provided by the Cuban government whose primary function is to facilitate sexual exploitation of minors or trafficking of women. This service is not used to any significant degree by Cuban citizens engaged in legal activties.

Find such a service. Remember, you’re charging active complicity, not simply failure to stop such activity by private parties. Lots of countries fail to stop such activity by private parties, including the US.

It was quite possibly because they thought he was a native sex worker escorting you as a client. All kinds of bad stuff can happen during such a transaction and if the government wishes to prevent/prosecute it, then it is in their best interests to know who was involved. They already knew who you were because you had registered the room. Knowing who he is helps track him down if you turn up murdered and your purse stolen. Self-protection from any embarrassing questions from the American Embassy. “She invited a prostitute to her room, we believe he murdered her for her money. We have a suspect and are trying to find him.” If everything goes smoothly, they breathe a sigh of relief, but during that indeterminite time, it is a good idea for them to know as much as possible about who may be involved. Sex tourists really hate this by the way and will avoid hotels who card companions. That establishes the kind of links which could lead to all kinds of embarassment/legal entanglements later. The fact that you turned over his ID probably made them scratch their heads. They could well have been hoping for an offer of a bribe.

Cuba has decided to avoid those risks entirely by disallowing natives trying to accompany tourists into state run resorts. Makes it a pain in the ass for sex tourists, but the market has provided. Bribes, prostitutes who solicit you in the lobby under cover of selling flowers, private bungalows, etc.

Enjoy,
Steven

55

Mtgman, actually we didn’t turn over his ID, although not for that reason. He just thought it was none of the hotel’s business who he was visiting, and as he was then an employee of the Russian Academy of Sciences in a somewhat politically sensitive position, in a country where regimes have been known to change at the drop of a hat, his feeling is that the less official record there is of who his friends are, the better.

Besides, my two roommates were sleeping off their jet lag, so we decided to go to his place instead. (The only reason he’d come to the hotel to begin with is that we landed on a holiday weekend, so there was nowhere to exchange money legally, so I didn’t even have bus fare.) Problem solved.

56

Ah, sorry. Thought you had actually turned over the ID and gone upstairs. Couldn’t tell from the first post. Oddly enough, that may have re-inforced any feelings on their part that he was a sex worker. If a customer brings a provider to the hotel and the security is not going to allow the tryst to take place without an uncomfortable security procedure first, they’ll turn around and go somewhere else. Assuming they don’t want to try bribing/bullying/sneaking their way through of course.

Enjoy,
Steven

57

In China they have attendants in every floor and you do not get a room key but the attendant opens the door for you. That is their way of keeping track of who comes and who goes. In cheap hotels it is easier to sneak someone in because the floor attendant is often not there. I remember an American guy who was with his Chinese-American girlfriend and they had all sorts of trouble. It was funny because she spoke no Chinese but the minute she showed her passport everything was OK. things have loosened up a lot since then.

58

In theory there was the same system in the USSR, and there still is in whatever FSU cities I’ve been in since the collapse. The results are very mixed. Most of the hotels I’ve stayed in were grungy cheap student hotels, which meant that the dezhurnaya (floor attendant) was frequently either absent or taking bribes to let black marketeers knock on our doors, or would sometimes even unlock the doors and let them straight into our rooms.

However, I did stay in a couple of tourist-type hotels, and in one of these the dezhurnaya would sell various useful convenience items at her desk, like aspirin, and yes, condoms. (For marital relations only, I’m sure, because Russian-made ones are so superior in quality to any that a Western tourist might bring along…) I believe there was even a choice of locally made ones or Trojans, or as one Russian friend put it, “summer raincoats or winter overcoats.”

59

You raise a fascinating question, Eva Russian condoms are superior? In what regard? Are they different as to their, ah, shall we say, proportions? This is surprising news from the country of the diesel powered vibrator.

But as China has been mentioned, one has to point out that China is in no wise superior to Cuba as regards human rights. If we are to take the Bushiviks at thier word, our antipathy to Cuba is principled and founded on lofty ideals. Why then do we fawn upon and pander to the entirely despotic Chinese regime and seek to strangle the inept but harmless Cubans?

60

I believe Soviet condoms were re-treaded regularly.