Child Prostitution in Cuba -- Round II

[december]

Some time ago I started a thread about child prostitution in Cuba. I lost that debate. I was never able to find sufficient cites to prove my thesis.

Now the US State Dept. has issued a report supporting my POV.

The answer lies in a just-released State Department report scoring [Castro’s] government for the “state-controlled tourism establishments and independent operators that facilitate the sexual exploitation of minors by foreign tourists.”

Cuba, the report goes on to say, turns a blind eye to this prostitution because it provides a source of badly needed hard currency…

The preferred State euphemism for this kind of activity is “trafficking in persons,” but the introduction to the report speaks much more boldly. “As unimaginable as it seems,” it begins, “slavery and bondage persist in the early 21st century.” Though trafficking also includes forced labor, a good chunk of the 800,000 to 900,000 human beings trafficked across borders are captives of the sex trade. [Note: these figures appear to refer to all countries, not just Cuba]

All too often they are women lured by the promise of work as nannies or waitresses only to find themselves forced into selling their bodies. With their passports or travel documents confiscated and with no means of escape, often threatened with beatings, they have little recourse. And the above figures do not include those trafficked internally, as in Cuba.

So, according to this report, while Cuba doesn’t officially support child prostitution, in practice it allows the encouragement of child prostitution by independent and by state-controlled tourism operators, as a way to get hard currency.

[minty_green]

How 'bout a link to the report, as opposed to the WSJ opinion page?

[errata]

What’s the debate exactly?

[bayonet1976]

First here is a link to the State Department report, and here a link to Powell’s statements on the subject.

Now for some perspective. The Cuban government is NOT endorsing child prostitution. In recent years it has passed a number of laws against “proxenetismo”, or pimping. The penalties for these crimes can go up to 20-30 years in prison, and the penalties are compounded when it involves minors. But, and this is where the report gets it just right, the government is not actively enforcing these laws, and because the government runs every single business in Cuba, from the hotels to the all inclusive resorts, it is in a very real way promoting prostitution.

I can go on, but I’m not really sure there’s a debate here.

[Mtgman]

december is re-asserting his previous statement that the Cuban government, either overtly or covertly, supports child prostitution. The fact that they haven’t been able to eliminate means they must not be making a good-faith effort or they’re not making an effort at all.

I’m guessing we’ll see a report fairly soon that Castro has weapons of mass destruction. After all, we know he had nukes within his borders at one time. Are we double-plus-supersure that they really did remove them all?

Hey! Wait a second I just thought of an example of “state-controlled tourism establishments and independent operators that facilitate the sexual exploitation of minors by foreign tourists.” Airlines! Those bastardly airlines! Oh, and ships too. Can’t forget the ships! And the hotels! Some of these sex tourists stay in hotels! And the construction companies! Someone built those hotels and the boredllos where the sex tourists go! They’re all in on it. They built those hotels so foreign pedophiles could have nice cushy places to stay when they come to abuse Cuban minors!

For anyone who wants a more clearheaded view, here is a synopsis. Cuba has legal prostitution. They get some number of visitors yearly who are there to utilize this service. Some subset of THOSE visitors are interested in minors. As the market dictates, some slime will offer to meet that need.

In the previous thread where december asserted government complicity, I linked to a report from one such “sex tourist” who had thought he had linked up with a legal prostitute, but in reality she had lied about her age. The cops picked them both up. He was scared spitless that he was going to a Cuban jail even though it was clear that the girl(and her mother, her pimp) had lied to him. Cuban authorities DO take this crime seriously. They happened to believe him because this particular girl and her mother had pulled this stunt before. IIRC they had served some jail time for it as well. Arguements that the Cuban government “turns a blind eye” will need to be substantiated far better than the opinion piece cited in the OP has done.

Enjoy,
Steven

[ElvisL1ves]

One debate might be why the WSJ, which apaprently does all of the OP’s thinking for him, isn’t even more strenuously condemning Thailand for condoning its own world-famous kiddie-prostitution industry.

An answer to that might be that the WSJ, like much of the RW media, selects its targets first and then goes around looking for facts to support their attacks.

[december]

*Originally posted by bayonet1976 *
** But, and this is where the report gets it just right, the government is not actively enforcing these laws, and because the government runs every single business in Cuba, from the hotels to the all inclusive resorts, it is in a very real way promoting prostitution.

I can go on, but I’m not really sure there’s a debate here.**

Thanks for the cite and the information, bayonet1976.

The intended question for debate is whether Castro’s government promotes child prostitution.

In Round I, I failed to demonstrate that Castro’s government supports child prostitution. My adversaries had the better of that debate, because they found cites demonstrating Cuba’s formal opposition to child prostitution by means of harsh penalties on the books, etc.

IIRC no other posters supported my POV in Round I, so your agreement with the OP is most welcome. I hope my adversaries from the previous debate will show here, to either defend Cuba’s conduct or to indicate a change of their opinions.

[bayonet1976]

Originally posted by Mtgman For anyone who wants a more clearheaded view, here is a synopsis. Cuba has legal prostitution. They get some number of visitors yearly who are there to utilize this service. Some subset of THOSE visitors are interested in minors. As the market dictates, some slime will offer to meet that need.

Sorry, but you’re wrong. Prostitution is not legal in Cuba. Unfortunately Cuba does not have its penal code available online, but here is a link to a Granma article that has some discussion on the subject. The relevant part reads:

PROSTITUTION:
A PHENOMENON WITH MULTIPLE CAUSES

A subject which has been played to the hilt in the foreign press and the focus of public debate by Cuban journalists, the resurgence of prostitution in Cuba during the special period, a social stigma eradicated by the Revolution through its program of social justice, is a phenomenon with multiple causes. It cannot be seen as the only option to resolving economic difficulties. This profession, which is as old as humanity itself, is present throughout the world.

Economic motives cannot be dismissed, but analysis must also encompass the gender perspective, on account of the discriminatory perception and self- perception of the woman as a sex object, as well as the distortion of values arising out of an overemphasis on material possessions.

Experts in this area agree that behind the return of prostitution in Cuba is the search for easy earnings by young people avoiding work, social and family responsibilities. At the start of the special period the activities, of the so-called “jineteras” was more open and had a certain degree of impunity.

However, the program of preventative action aimed at halting its spread has had an impact on the public practice of prostitution.

[Dogface]

The Cuban government runs the venues through which this operation is handled. The CUBAN GOVERNMENT runs the hotels and bars where this is happening.

The
Cuban
Government
Runs
The
Locales
Where
Child
Prostitution
Is
Occuring.

In any sane country, one holds the operators/owners at least partially responsible if child prostitution goes on at their places of business. Why is the Cuban government being cut a free ride by some people? What interest do they have in absolving the Cuban government from its responsibility. If a child is killed from neglect, is there nobody who is responsible? One must wonder just why some people wish that the Cuban government continue to turn a blind eye to these practices.

[Mtgman]

bayonet thanks for the insight. I wasn’t aware the state owned ALL the tourism infrastructure(although it should have been expected given the communist nature of the government).

I’ve made something of a study of prostitution in its various forms and the various government’s reactions to it. From legalizing it, to regulating it, to criminalizing it. The success rates vary wildly and my review of Cuban law and the crime statistics I’ve been able to find, as well as resources inside the “sex tourist” community(and yes, they do have a community where they trade reports and recommendations and such) hasn’t really had significantly more issues, than other poor states.

Still, I lack a “man on the ground” insight. Is it your perception, as a Cuban ex-pat, that these laws actually are lame ducks? Any idea if that’s intentional? A law can be unenforced, or unenforcable. There is a spectrum between the two endpoints.

Unenforced - fairly high occurance
somewhat enforced - moderate occurance
strictly enforced - lower occurance

No matter how strictly enforced, occurances still happen. Not all the bad guys get caught and sometimes the bad guys are good enough to still attract customers and evade the law at the same time. This is not always a function of law enforcement/government “turning a blind eye”. The number of dollars brought in by prositution is stupidly high for a low-income country. For using a resource that is quite abundant and renewable. Laws work to a degree and I haven’t seen, in my studies, that they work significantly less well in Cuba than in, say, Thailand.

Enjoy,
Steven

[bayonet1976]

Originally posted by december *
The intended question for debate is whether Castro’s government promotes child prostitution.*

Well, as a Cuban who no longer lives there but with close ties to the island I can tell you that the “government” does not promote child prostitution at all. It has passed laws against it, and has publicized those laws to a degree. I put “government” in quotations because nearly everything in Cuba is a government enterprise, including the tourism industry. The government is very careful about doing anything that might damage that source of cash, more so since September 11, when tourism to Cuba nearly stopped. Consequently if a tourist is stopped with an underage prostitute, he is usually let go and the girl will probably be sent to a forced labor camp. Most of the time, however, cops simply turn a blind eye.

A different outrage that gets very little, if any, press is Cuba’s forced child labor policy. From the 6th grade on Cuban children are forced to spend anywhere from 45 days performing full time unpaid farm labor, to the entire school year for half a day each day. These labor camps serve very little purpose, other than the indoctrination of these children. Before someone pipes in with a remark about how this is probably to help with a shortage of farm labor, Cuba’s unemployment rate has been at about 30% since the early 1990’s.

These children are sent to camps far removed from their families, and is most cases do not see them for the entire time they’re at the farm, like I mentioned before sometimes this can be the entire school year. Attendance is compulsory up to, I think 9th grade, and still required from then on if they plan on attending college.

[bayonet1976]

*Originally posted by Mtgman *
Still, I lack a “man on the ground” insight. Is it your perception, as a Cuban ex-pat, that these laws actually are lame ducks? Any idea if that’s intentional? A law can be unenforced, or unenforcable. There is a spectrum between the two endpoints.

Unenforced - fairly high occurance
somewhat enforced - moderate occurance
strictly enforced - lower occurance

**

Right after the Revolution the Cuban government went on a “eliminate prostitution” kick, which consisted of relocation prostitutes from the cities to smaller towns in the countryside. The predictable result was that, if you wanted a prostitute you simply went to the countryside, instead of the big cities. So, for a long time the government has essentially turned a blind eye to prostitution.

IMO, these laws were passed because the government had made such a big deal about eliminating prostitution, and because it is fairly obvious and widely reported that Cuba is a hot spot for prostitution. The phrase “saving face” comes to mind. Also IMO the laws are rarely if ever enforced, they’re just for show.

[Mtgman]

I guess I mixed up the distinction Cuba makes re: prostitution. They have a weird bit of a legal take on it. I also couldn’t find cuban law online, but here is a summary with a specific citation for a Cuban statute number.

According to a report from a United Nation’s Special Raporteur for Violence Against Women (Coomaraswamy), Article 302 of Cuba’s Penal Code, Ley No. 62 states, “prostitution in itself is not a crime but all acts relating to prostitution such as the exploitation of prostitution of others, are punishable by law with deprivation of liberty for from four to 10 years. Trafficking in women is sanctioned with up to 30 years imprisonment.” However, it appears little pressure has been put upon those who utilize prostitution in Cuba. It is important to note that no foreign tourists has ever been apprehended for soliciting a prostitute, according to the same UN report.

Cuba has taken a supply-side approach. Eliminate the structure(pimps, trafficers) and the problem will sort itself out. A very interesting legal situation. Typically customers and prostitutes acting on their own are just fine(assuming both are of age, and the age of consent in Cuba is 16 IIRC) legally. I’m not sure how well the supply-side tack works, but I just don’t see it helping Cuba to have tons of foreign citizens in their jails and to be constantly dealing with extradition issues. Keeping the prostitiution limited to independent operators seems to cut out the problems which would arise if large-scale operations were legal.

An unusual legal approach to prostitution to be sure.

Enjoy,
Steven

[minty_green]

I have not yet read the report, though I intend to do so later. One important question, it seems to me, is what level of the Cuban govenment are we talking about here? When you’re talking about a nation where the government is nearly every institution in existence, one cannot simply extrapolate that, say, a manager of a thrid-rate tourist hotel in Havana being up to his eyeballs in child prostitution means that Fidel Castro is up to his eyeballs in child prostitution. Speaking of “the government” generally says very little when “the government” is everything on the island.

Mtgman: Potential DFW gatheringover here.

[Mtgman]

Oh, if anyone is interested, some more info on Cuban law, including sections of the statutes and the travel report I mentioned earlier, can be found at the AgeOfConsent.com page on Cuba

Enjoy,
Steven

[bayonet1976]

*Originally posted by minty green *
**I have not yet read the report, though I intend to do so later. One important question, it seems to me, is what level of the Cuban govenment are we talking about here? When you’re talking about a nation where the government is nearly every institution in existence, one cannot simply extrapolate that, say, a manager of a thrid-rate tourist hotel in Havana being up to his eyeballs in child prostitution means that Fidel Castro is up to his eyeballs in child prostitution. Speaking of “the government” generally says very little when “the government” is everything on the island.

Mtgman: Potential DFW gatheringover here. **

It’s kind of hard to explain this to anyone who hasn’t lived in Cuba, but believe me, everyone there is watching everyone else, more or less. That doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything illegal, it just means that you better make sure when you’re doing something illegal that you have either bought off the guy who’s supposed to be watching you, or you have given him a piece of the action. In you hypothetical example, that hotelier would most certainly have to be very well connected in order to run such an operation. So, I don’t think we can absolve the government so easily.

[Mtgman]

Nor should we absolve them. The ideal behind a communist government is the government handles many of the duties private interests handle in capitalist socities. Failure in those duties should carry consequences. What should be determined, when a breakdown occurs, is where the breakdown occurred in the massive infrastructure of the state and where culpability lies. If it is individual cops giving out passes and they aren’t following some sort of deparmental mandate, then the largest share of culpability is on the individual cops. If the department issued the “don’t enforce” mandate on it’s own authority, then the overall justice department isn’t as culpable, etc.

Note: This post acknowledges that bad things, even child prostitution, happen in Cuba and that some of them occur because of the governmental structure(hard to avoid when the government is all-pervasive as it is in communist countries). This does not imply the broader assertion that “Castro’s government promotes child prostitution.”

Enjoy,
Steven

[rjung]

*Originally posted by Dogface *
The Cuban government runs the venues through which this operation is handled. The CUBAN GOVERNMENT runs the hotels and bars where this is happening.

The
Cuban
Government
Runs
The
Locales
Where
Child
Prostitution
Is
Occuring.

Despite what you may think, Dogface, your argument doesn’t get any better just because you repeat yourself.

In any sane country, one holds the operators/owners at least partially responsible if child prostitution goes on at their places of business.

So by this logic, if you and I are at a booth in the local McDonalds, and you sell me a vial of cocaine, and we get busted by the cops five seconds later, McDonalds is partially guilty of the crime as well? Or are you just overexcited at the thought of joining december in orgasmic groupthink again?

[minty_green]

*Originally posted by bayonet1976 *
It’s kind of hard to explain this to anyone who hasn’t lived in Cuba, but believe me, everyone there is watching everyone else, more or less. That doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything illegal, it just means that you better make sure when you’re doing something illegal that you have either bought off the guy who’s supposed to be watching you, or you have given him a piece of the action. In you hypothetical example, that hotelier would most certainly have to be very well connected in order to run such an operation. So, I don’t think we can absolve the government so easily.

There you go talking about “the government” again. The question is which parts, which levels of the government are involved, if any? Merely because everybody is or appears to be watching everybody else does not mean that everybody is getting reported on to everybody up the government chain.

Plenty of illicit stuff goes on in Cuba, even stuff that the upper levels of the government would surely condemn and want to suppress. This child prostitution thing–if it even is a thing–may be one of them. At the least, it seems reasonable to requrie proponents of the theory to offer some kind of evidence that such involvement extends beyond the low-level types who seem to be implicated directly.

[december]

*Originally posted by minty green *
** At the least, it seems reasonable to requrie proponents of the theory to offer some kind of evidence that such involvement extends beyond the low-level types who seem to be implicated directly. **

I agree. The State Department report says:

Cuba is a country of internal trafficking for sexual exploitation and forced labor. Minors are victimized in sexual exploitation connected to the state-run tourism industry. Despite occasional measures by the Government of Cuba to crack down on prostitution, state-controlled tourism establishments and independent operators facilitate and even encourage the sexual exploitation of minors by foreign tourists. Government authorities turn a blind eye to this exploitation because such activity helps to win hard currency for state-run enterprises. Opponents of the Cuban government, often arrested under the crime of “dangerousness,” are forced to carry out state-run construction and agricultural labor that profit the state. Laborers are coerced to work on foreign investment or government priority projects without adequate compensation, which is retained by the state. Children are coerced to perform agricultural work.

The Government of Cuba does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking and is not making significant efforts to do so. The government does not acknowledge that its tourism institutions are involved in the sexual trafficking of minors; it does not acknowledge that it participates in forced labor trafficking. (emphasis added)