A brief Soviet analogy, if you will permit me: until the end of the Soviet era, the government owned and managed all retail establishments. Speculation (buying items in official state establishments at the state-set price and reselling them for a higher price) was illegal and punishable by a prison term, but was rampant everywhere, particularly for scarce goods such as alcohol and anything not Soviet-made. (Even East German shoes start to look like a luxury item if you’ve been wearing the crappy Soviet ones long enough.)
So low-level jobs as sales or stock clerks at state stores were hard to get, because they gave access to scarce goods, and thus the ability to resell them for a profit. Practically everyone in the Soviet system bought and/or sold items on the black market; one grad school professor of mine, a Harvard-educated economist who specializes in the black market in socialist and post-socialist economies, estimated that about half of the Soviet economy during certain periods was composed of black-market transactions.
Does this mean that Brezhnev, et. al. allowed or supported black-market transactions, because they couldn’t stop every sales clerk from skimming off the stock for resale? IM absolutely not.
I will remind you that december in round I said the Cuban government mandated child prostitution. Now he hopes to win by saying they turn a blind eye. The first assertion was not true and the second one is not true either. I have been to Cuba and I know what I am talking about. Anyone who says the contrary has not been to CUba and does not know what he is talking about.
Many Cuban Hotels are run and managed by European and Canadian companies so the thought that they are governm,ent owned and operated is not true. Furthermore, it is strictly forbidden to take Cubans up to your rooms and there are guards everywhere. It can be done by bribing them but the guard, the tourist and the guest run the risk of getting into some serious shit.
I know Cuba and I know Cuban people and I know this is not true. I am not going to waste any time on this thread.
And the US government saying something for me these days carries as much weight as if Castro said it. The US government has done nothing but lie for the last few months. If I am going to condemn another country for something I want some reliable evidence coming from neutral sources like the UN or NGOs.
We have many legitimate reasons to condem Castro and his regime. Europe has recently tightened the screws on him for his political repression and there have been counterdemonstrations in Cuba. But he has not been accused of allowing child sex. It is not true and if the US government is saying that then the US government is lying.
I have now read the report, or at least the Cuba section of it. Lest anyone think it’s any kind of documentary report, it is no more and no less than what december just quoted a couple spots up the page. There is nary a cite to be seen, and nothing more than a bunch of vague references to various low-level portions of “the government.”
Allow me to repeat: EVERYTHING IN CUBA IS “THE GOVERNMENT.”
And if december really did claim in the other thread that the Cuban government “mandates” child prostitution, allow me to add that that is some really weak shit, d.
Oh, I get it. If Castro disappeared tomorrow and a crony-capitalist developing regime was instituted, there would be no child prostitution in Cuba at all. Right.
Cuba is going to suffer the same problems as any developing country, and one of those problems is child prostitution. I think it’s definitely a problem that needs to be addressed, not just in Cuba, but in China, the Philippines, Russia, Mexico, India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, the list just goes on and on and is too depressing.
Castro or no Castro, there will probably be child prostitution in Cuba. Is there anything the US can do to alleviate the problem? Does the US actually want to do anything to alleviate the problem? If the US is serious, perhaps instead of just waiting for Castro to die, they could actually try and open a dialogue with the Cuban government to try and address this issue.
it start half way down that second page I linked to. Just rereading it aggravates me because december is so immune to reasoning. I can’t believe we are going to do the whole thing over again.
BrightNShiny, you seem to be saying that if Cuba has child prostitution, it’s the United States’s fault.
Minty, the report says that the government “turns a blind eye” to child prostitution, meaning that they do not try to prevent it. That goes beyond just low level portions of the government (if it’s so.)
sailor, may I inquire how you determined how the status of child prostitution when you were in Cuba. Did you or someone you know attempt to hire a child prostitute and find that it couldn’t be done? Did you take the word of the Castro government? Did you take the word of some Cubans who might have been fearful of criticizing their government? In short, why are you a better judge of conditions in Cuba than the State Department?
** Eva Luna**, your Soviet analogy implies that the USSR tried to control the black market but couldn’t do it. The State Dept. report said that Cuba turns a blind eye to child prostitution, meaning that they don’t try to stop it. It says that Cuba benefits from child prostitution, since it’s a source of hard currency.
There is plenty of child prostitution in the dominican Republic, El Salvador and many other poor countries in that part of the world with governments friendly to the USA and that does not seem to be a problem. Same thing about a bunch of countries in SE Asia but that is not a problem either. And yet december feels he has to accuse Cuba which is about the only country of the lot which will not tolerate it. it is pathetic.
One could make the argument that the government of the USA mandates drugs because, even though there are laws in the books against them, in reality they look the other way and in practice it is obvious the USA is a huge consumer of drugs and we all know this could only happen if the government allowed it to happen. . . ergo, the government is guilty.
If it is happening we can discuss who is responsible but first you have to prove that it is happening and that has not been proven. I do not believe there is anything in Cuba where the government would even look the other way. No way. They are guilty of many things but this is not one of them.
That’s not what I meant to say. What I am trying to say is:
Child prostitution is a problem in any number of developing nations. It is not limited to Cuba.
I see no evidence that the child prostitution problem in Cuba is supported by the Castro government, although it may be illegally tolerated on lower levels (which is also quite common in the developing world).
There is no justification for thinking that if a non-Castro regime was in place, the child prostitution problem would disappear, since many developing countries with widely differing economic and governmental systems have the problem.
If the US government truly feels that this is a problem to be worried about, then perhaps it can do something to help deal with it. While condemning Castro’s government doesn’t harm the situation, it does nothing to help it either. It’s not the US’s fault that Cuba may have a child prostitution problem, nor is the US doing anything about it either. This is just empty rhetoric.
It’s certainly a problem in several other nations.
Except that the State Dept says the Castro government turns a blind eye to it.
Who knows?
Actually the point of having this State Dept. report is so that the US can apply sanctions. We are now trying to do something about Cuba’s and other countries’ child prostitution and forced labor. From the cite in the OP:
No, you’re reading too much between the lines. The USSR tried sporadically to control the black market; numerous people were arrested and imprisoned for black marketeering and various variations thereof, but the number was always a small fraction of those who engaged in it, because practically everybody engaged in black market transactions to varying degrees.
So sometimes the government prosecuted it, and sometimes they turned a blind eye to it, and sometimes they may have prosecuted iit if they knew about it, but it was far too pervasive for limited law enforement resources to control. No government is that monolithic, especially if the vast majority of citizens are also government employees, at least nominally.
I was in Cuba this past February. Know nothing about child prostitution, but adult prostitution is alive & well-but it is not government supported at all. Every chica I met was very concerned about the police. A few of my male friends were carted off to the local PD, & held briefly. No hotels allow tourists to bring ladies in to your room. This is a change from prior years. So ladies are plentiful, the problem is finding a private room, which is literally a cottage industry.
Because the State Dept says so…Because the State Dept says so…Because the State Dept says so…Because the State Dept says so…Because the State Dept says so…
Of all countries similarly situated economically, Cuba is probably the one with the government which makes the greates effort to stop child prostitution so december’s charge is ludicrous in its face. Why doesn’t he start threads about all the other countries where the problem is much worse? Like the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Thailand, Philippines, Afghanistan. . . could it be because they are on friendly terms with the USA? In fact, the situation in Afghanistan is much worse since the US invasion. The Taliban did not permit this stuff which has again flourished since the US overthrew the Taliban (cultivation of drugs is another thing which has increased exponentially after the Taliban).
I have always maintained that the ends do not justify the means. I say it about the USA and I’ll say it about Cuba. Stopping child prostitution or drug production, no matter how desirable they may be, does not justify the methods used by the Taliban or by the Cuban government. But accusing the Cuban government in being complicit in child prostitution is ludicrous on its face for anyone who knows anything about Cuba. Cuban police are very intrusive and heavy-handed in their methods and they definitely do not turn a blind eye to child abuse. You can probably find as much child abuse in Washington DC as you do in Cuba. Poverty does that.
The State Dept. is not impartial and is in the business of distorting the truth for its own ends. There is no support whatsoever for what it says.
The charges about “people traficking” against Cuba are also ludicrous. The USA calls “people traficking” aiding people immigrate illegally into the USA. It is propaganda-speak because it makes it sound much worse. So it accuses the Cuban government of not doing enough to prevent people from escaping from Cuba and attempting to go to the USA. Which is ludicrous. The Cuban government is not soft on those trying to escape and is suffering sanctions from the EU and other countries for this. At the same time the USA grants the right to stay to any Cuban who can make it to the USA and this privilege is only granted to Cubans and to no other people. The Cuban government accuses the USA, and rightly so, of encouraging Cubans to try to make it to the USA while at the same time accusing Cuba of not doing enough to prevent it. The USA is demandin Cuba prevent what the USA encourages and the only purpose of this is to crreate problems for Cuba.
I have no sympathy for the Cuban government or its methods but that does not blind me to the fact that the US government does not have clean hands either and is acting like a child throwing a tantrum. The US government does not like the Cuban government and that is fine. Resorting to lies and deception is not OK.
I am considering whether this deserves a new pit thread or resurecting the old one.
I notice december has become very silent with regard to his original remark which can be found here.
The whole thing was pretty much discredited in the pit thread and the State Dept. language does not really add or change the credibility of december’s claims. In that thread the Dept of State was already mentioned and discredited and so this is not new.
actually it is the situation in other countries, e.g. UK, and I beleive NZ until recently . It is not a crime to be a prostitute (as that would penalise desperate poor women) nor a customer (as that would penalise too many politicians), however running a brothel (e.g. with more than prostitute), living off a prostitute (pimping) or curbcrawling to pick up prostitutes is illegal
Actually, by Cuban law, Cuba is always the majority partner in these foreign ventures. Also by Cuban law, all of these foreign ventures must be staffed by Cubanacan the Cuban employment agency, so they are most certainly staffed by Cubans.
As to taking Cubans up to your room, the laws that prohibited associating with foreigners are off the books for now, so this is no longer true. However, hotel facilities are restricted to registered guests and their guests, consequently unaccompanied Cubans are not allowed in. Of course they don’t card everyone going into the hotel, so essentially if you look “latin” in Cuba, prepared to be hassled.