Tell me bad things about Cuba.

[phantom_lamb]

To cut it short, my boyfriend is convinced that Cuba is some kind of utopia and that Castro is a great guy. Everyone is equal and eveyrone gets what they need and there’s no evil consumer mentality. I call BS but I admit I’m not knowledgable enough on this subject to actually offer him concrete examples of why he might be wrong.

So please offer me some counterarguments :o

[SanVito]

Before I start, I should say that I do love Cuba and have visited a number of times. Having said that…

Everyone is ‘equal’, but everyone is poor. A doctor doesn’t get paid much more than the rubbish collectors.

Most people want to work in the tourist industry because that means access to dollar tips (the tourist industry uses dollars rather than local pesos). With dollars they can shop in dollar shops, where they can buy such exotic goods as body lotion and hairbrushes. The peso shops are basically empty.

In fact, workers in the tourist industry would rather you gave them your shampoo/razers/bikini/moisturiser than even dollars, because they just can’t buy them anywhere.

In Havanna, there’s the local places and then there’s the tourist places. You can buy a daquiri at the famous Floridita bar in the footsteps of Hemingway for $10… which is about a month’s wages to the average Cuban. Apartheid through poverty. I could give you a dozen other examples of things tourists can access (because we are 'rich) which a Cuban couldn’t dream of. Now, this is true for rich vs poor people in the west too, of course, but the difference in the west is that we have the opportunity to better ourselves. That doesn’t exist in Cuba. At all.

There’s huge restrictions on ownership of ‘stuff’ – cars, homes etc. Basically, if you didn’t own a car in 1959, you can’t have one now (unless you work in very specific industries), which is why the old 50s cars are still in action. Of course as a tourist I can roam the country freely in a nice 4x4 hire car.

There’s lots of great stuff about Cuba – free access to great healthcare and education and you don’t see the extremes of poverty you may associate with 3rd world countries (beggars, cripples, starving children, overcrowded housing). But it’s human nature to want more and Cubans are frustrated they can’t get it, particularly as so many now get exposure to ‘wealthy’ tourists. Although, I must say, they are universally proud of ‘La Revolution!’

[medicated]

@SanVito

Although, I must say, they are universally proud of ‘La Revolution!’

True, though it’s hard to tell how proud a given citizen actually is, what with the government’s habit of imprisoning anyone who speaks publicly against the Castros or the party.

Here’s some interesting reading for you…

[Shodan]

@SanVito

you don’t see the extremes of poverty you may associate with 3rd world countries

You do see extremes if you look at the leaders - most Cubans are poor while the Castros are billionaires.

Regards,
Shodan

[Xema]

The wiki article on human rights in Cuba is worth reading.

Some excerpts:

Cuban law limits freedom of expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press.

Cuba’s provision regarding contempt for authority (desacato) penalizes anyone who “threatens, libels or slanders, defames, affronts (injuria) or in any other way insults (ultraje) or offends, with the spoken word or in writing, the dignity or decorum of an authority, public functionary, or his agents or auxiliaries.” Such actions are punishable by three months to one year in prison, plus a fine.

The Criminal Code mandates a three-month to one-year sentence for anyone who “publicly defames, denigrates, or scorns the Republic’s institutions, the political, mass, or social organizations of the country, or the heroes or martyrs of the nation.” This sweeping provision potentially outlaws mere expressions of dissatisfaction or disagreement with government policies or practices

Anyone who “produces, disseminates, or directs the circulation of publications without indicating the printer or the place where it was printed, or without following the established rules for the identification of the author or origin, or reproduces, stores, or transports” such publications, risks from three months to one year in prison.

Cuban law defines dangerousness (el estado peligroso) as “the special proclivity of a person to commit crimes, demonstrated by conduct that is observed to be in manifest contradiction with the norms of socialist morality.” … If Cuba determines that someone is dangerous, the Criminal Code allows the state to impose “pre-criminal measures,” including surveillance by the National Revolutionary Police and reeducation for periods of one to four years. The state may detain the person during this time. The law also provides for “therapeutic measures,” including detention in a psychiatric hospital, that are continued “until the dangerousness disappears from the subject.” The open-ended nature of this punishment affords the state extraordinary authority to abuse the rights of political opponents and the developmentally disabled.

The Cuban constitution says that free speech is allowed “in keeping with the objectives of socialist society” and that artistic creation is allowed “as long as its content is not contrary to the Revolution”. Cuba’s ranking was on the bottom of the Press Freedom Index 2008 compiled by the Reporters Without Borders (RWB). Cuba was named one of the ten most censored countries in the world by the Committee to Protect Journalists.

[Harmonious_Discord]

Do all the people loaded on anything that will float and attempting to make it to the USA and dying doing it count as proof it’s not all sunshine and laughter?

I vote for going to Florida and letting him speak to someone that used to live there.

[Autolycus]

Sounds like heaven to me.

[wevets]

Human Rights Watch has a report on Cuba describing Raul Castro’s government as using the same methods of repression as Fidel’s.

It can be found online here: New Castro, Same Cuba

Some exerpts from the Executive Summary:

Despite significant obstacles to research, Human Rights Watch documented more than 40 cases in which Cuba has imprisoned individuals for “dangerousness” under Raúl Castro because they tried to exercise their fundamental rights. We believe there are many more. The “dangerous” activities in these cases have included handing out copies of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, staging peaceful marches, writing news articles critical of the government, and attempting to organize independent unions.

The Raúl Castro government has applied the “dangerousness” law not only to dissenters and critics of the government, but to a broad range of people who choose not to cooperate with the state. We found that failing to attend pro-government rallies, not belonging to official party organizations, and being unemployed are all considered signs of “antisocial” behavior, and may lead to “official warnings” and even incarceration in Raúl Castro’s Cuba. In a January 2009 campaign called “Operation Victory,” dozens of individuals in eastern Cuba—most of them youth—were charged with “dangerousness” for being unemployed. So was a man from Sancti Spíritus who could not work because of health problems, and was sentenced to two years’ imprisonment in August 2008 for being unemployed.

Dissidents are a small and significantly isolated segment of the population. However, their marginalization is evidence not of the lack of dissent in Cuba, but rather of the state’s ruthless efficiency in suppressing it. Fear permeates all aspects of dissidents’ lives. Some stop voicing their opinions and abandon their activities altogether; others continue to exercise their rights, but live in constant dread of being punished. Many more never express dissent to avoid reprisals. As human rights defender Rodolfo Bartelemí Coba told Human Rights Watch in March 2009, “We live 24 hours a day ready to be detained.” Ten days after making that statement, Bartelemí was arrested and taken to prison without trial, where he remains today.

Dissenters are punished daily in nearly every aspect of their lives. The Cuban government routinely uses short-term arrests to harass dissidents or prevent them from participating in groups or activities considered “counterrevolutionary.” Dissidents are beaten, publicly humiliated, and threatened by security officers and groups of civilians tied to the state. They are denied work, fired from jobs, and fined, placing significant financial strain on their families. They are prevented from exercising their right to travel within and outside of the island. And they are subjected to invasive surveillance, which violates their privacy and gathers information that can later be used to imprison them. These tactics of repression are consistently visited on the families of dissenters as well.

Yeesh.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Once, Cuba borrowed a jacket from me. Even though I gave it to Cuba on a hanger, I got it back in a shopping bag. And Cuba didn’t even have it dry-cleaned and there was some weird stain on the lapel. Totally gross.

Also, Cuba always asks you to buy it drinks when you go to the bar, even though Cuba never picks up a round itself.

[Chefguy]

It’s a shining example of the great lie that is communism. Castro’s goals were noble back in the day when he was hiding out in the Sierra Maestre. He had high ideals and wanted to purge the nation of corrupt people like Batista and the American gangsters that were running Havana. He eventually became convinced that his ideals and communism were a good fit, but like all long-term leaders he became corrupt himself, developing a stern, paternal outlook on his people. I have to say that the guy has been indesructible over the years: he’s survived assassination attemps, coup attempts, poisonings, bombings, shootings, you name it.

[Gary_T]

@phantom_lamb

To cut it short, my boyfriend is convinced that Cuba is some kind of utopia and that Castro is a great guy. Everyone is equal and eveyrone gets what they need and there’s no evil consumer mentality.

Almost everyone is equally wretched, they tend to get what they absolutely need though not what they want, and there’s essentially nothing to consume. So he’s mostly right about those aspects.

Tell me bad things about Cuba.

My mind’s on not-so-good things about your boyfriend. I think it takes a certain naiveté to see those admirable aspects in isolation from the negative components. It speaks to me of willful ignorance, lack of critical thinking, and a rather juvenile “the world would be so wonderful if only…” worldview that fails to recognize human nature and political reality. I’d be worn out from rolling my eyes and shaking my head if I had to listen to that pap. Of course, he’s not my boyfriend, so carry on.

[Smeghead]

Where’s Commisar when you need him?

[puddleglum]

The reason the is no evil consumer mentality is that for most of the population there is nothing to consume. Average Cubans eat meat maybe once a month, the only shops that have goods to buy are open only for those who can pay with dollars which are forbidden to the average cuban. It is illegal to open a business. Those who criticize the government are beaten and imprisoned. The hospitals for ordinary cubans are dirty and dilapidated with old equipment and very little of even basic medicines. The ruling class lives very well while the vast majority of cubans are ill fed and ill clothed. Many are forced to become “jinetoros” or prostitutes for tourists.
Tell your boyfriend to do a little research, these things are not happening in a corner. People are risking their lives everyday to escape that hellhole, their stories are not hard to find.

[Sunspace]

The tourist apartheit is the reason I’ve never actually gone to Cuba, even though package holidays are cheap from Toronto. Well, that and the repression. I’d actually like to see the place; it must be one of the last places on earth without a McDonalds.

[even_sven]

You’ll find the “tourist apartheid” quite handily in every poor country. Heck, you can find it quite handily here in beautiful Washington DC- somehow my bus manages to come precisely on time during the mostly-white downtown commute hours, but wander lazily by at random during the (largely not white) off hours.

I believe people in Florida are often people who specifically lost in the revolution, and thus may not actually be upset about conditions now, but more about what their family specifically lost out on.

Anyway, like any country, Cuba has it’s ups and downs. Anyone who characterizes it as a paradise clearly is wrong. But there are certainly places in the Carribean that are a lot worse.

[code_grey]

@even_sven

Anyway, like any country, Cuba has it’s ups and downs. Anyone who characterizes it as a paradise clearly is wrong. But there are certainly places in the Carribean that are a lot worse.

those other Caribbean “places” do exist, but they are not inhabited by white people. Cuba is scary as an example of a (mostly) white nation reduced to utter destitution under Communist rule. Just like North Korea after around 1990 is an example of a NE Asian nation with a similar fate. That’s not to say that there were no reasonably successful Communist nations (East Germany comes to mind) but Cuba is not one of them.

Incidentally, by the same reasoning the cases of great deprivation induced by post-Soviet “reforms” in many parts of the former Soviet Union are a solid indictment of the ideology and its implementation that stood behind them. Just because life in Ukraine has always been better than life in (pick a hellhole place) does not mean that the collapse of living standards there after the messed up Communism got replaced with even more messed up capitalism is nothing to worry about. Being a Commie, a capitalist or any other ideological persuasion is not a good enough reason to think that “keeping trains on time”, “keeping people gainfully employed” and other principles of good governance somehow don’t apply.

[code_grey]

I would say that sex tourism industry in Cuba is a pretty solid indictment of their economic system. I cannot find any hard numbers, but it sounds like this is a significant part of the economy at this point. Given the power of the Communist state, it should be obvious that if this is happening it’s not because the understaffed police are losing a “war on vice”. It’s happening because the Communist state needs the money more than it cares about moral principles and even basic prestige involved.

Under capitalists Cuba was a major exporter of sugar while sex tourism was limited, among other things, by the relatively expensive transportation back then. Now under Communists they can no longer grow sugar efficiently enough to sell, but they sure can service the capitalists looking for a good time, arriving via capitalist-run airlines.

Anyway, I wish them all the best, and maybe their local Commies will eventually follow the Chinese example into running the country decently while “democratic” politicos elsewhere amongst their neighbors will only deepen the various problems facing their countries (gradual decay of Jamaica especially comes to mind). But for the time being, boy, what a shame.

[Furious_Marmot]

If you want more information about the depressing and absurd food situation there, check out the article ‘30 days as a Cuban’ by Patrick Symmes. It appeared in Harper’s magazine in December (I think). Harper’s website requires a subscription, but the full text pdfs are readily available through Google.

I read it while flying across the continent for vacation, which I imagine I wouldn’t do very often if I was a Cuban (instead of American) working stiff. Made me feel like a huge dick for complaining that all of the food at the airport was overpriced and crappy.

[Chefguy]

@code_grey

Under capitalists Cuba was a major exporter of sugar while sex tourism was limited, among other things, by the relatively expensive transportation back then. Now under Communists they can no longer grow sugar efficiently enough to sell, but they sure can service the capitalists looking for a good time, arriving via capitalist-run airlines.

There was a brief heyday of sex tourism during the casino years before Castro. Airlines ran cheap and continuous flights to Havana for gamblers, and the sex trade catered to all economic classes. It was a natural byproduct of gambling and it flourished not only in whorehouses, but also in the casinos and hotels owned by the mob. According to Traficante, even Senator John Kennedy had a threesome in one of their hotel rooms, which they watched through a two-way mirror. Castro’s troops were busy burning down canefields and bombing businesses, but it really didn’t put much of a dent in what was going on until that fateful New Year’s Eve.

[pinguin]

@phantom_lamb

To cut it short, my boyfriend is convinced that Cuba is some kind of utopia and that Castro is a great guy. Everyone is equal and eveyrone gets what they need and there’s no evil consumer mentality. I call BS but I admit I’m not knowledgable enough on this subject to actually offer him concrete examples of why he might be wrong.

So please offer me some counterarguments :o

If he speaks Spanish, show him this Youtube. It talks about Castro as a Taino Cacique, and God-King, that dominated the island as a he wishes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXkYOXGeZKg

Or show this picture with desesperated people trying to escape

http://www.dailyplunge.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/truck-boat.jpg

Or tell him known people is suffering hunger in the island and that sometimes there is not even toilet paper! They are escaping anywhere they can go, even to South America. Any place is better.