Cultures and last-naming

Factual Questions
1

Any pattern to the cultural/linguistic use of last names which indicate lineage, such as patronymics? English and relates have them (like “Johnson” or “MacArthur”), Greek (like “Mixhailopoulos”), Russian (granted, middle names like “Alexeyvitch”), Hebrew (the affix Bar-) and Arabic (the affix al-, IIRC)? Spaniards indicate it [formally, as in Luis Garcia Lopez y Vega de Ruiz] but don’t seem to have self-encompassing names of that type (no “Garciahijo”).

Any pattern ? deeper significance ?

O le mea a tamaali’i fa’asala, a o le mea a tufanua fa’alumaina.

2

Jorge –

I think the Arabic term is ibn rather than al as in Daoud ibn Saud.

Other than that nit I don’t have anything to add except that the patronymics are, duh, almost always based on the male parent.

Surnames are a relatively recent invention, aren’t they? It was only a few centuries ago when it was Will the Smith and John the Baker even in “enlightened” spots like England.

BTW, please translate the Samoan(?) for me. I have a tiny acquaintance with the language but my vocabulary doesn’t stretch far enough to read your sigline.

3

Well, first of all, the origin of Mac- names is Gaelic, which is not related to English.

Also, isn’t the -ez in Spanish names the functional equivalent of -hijo?

4

-ez or -es are indeed patronymic forms of names, which accounts for the large numbers of Hernandez, Fernandez, Valdez, Rodriguez, etc. in Spanish-speaking countries.

5

In Iceland, if Hans has a son named Lars, then he’s Lars Hansson (I’m not exactly sure about the number of s’s there). Inga’s daughter Ingrid is Ingrid Ingasdottir.

Good luck finding a phone number in the phone book.

I have seen some Icelandic names like Magnus ver Magnusson. What’s the “ver” for?

6

Patronymics were pretty traditional in many cultures. Other than that, social isolation really precluded the need for anything other than occupation(such as Baker, or Smith). At some point(i’m not sure where) these last names became ingrained, and were essentially enforced by government. This led to some interesting last names, as people who weren’t really too keen on the whole idea were suddenly being forced to choose a last name. (My afrikaans friend who’s name translated as John Who-has-no-God apparently had such an ancestor.) For whatever reason-probably the genealogical ease involved-the system of familial last names(originally only in nobility(so-and-so of such-and-such-a-place)) just stuck. Hence the current system.

7

I’m a Korean American adoptee…I’m just learning about my Heritage so if I get this wrong or half-assed DO NOT stone me! I’m still green - er, yellow. That being said:

The Koreans tend to name children so the person’s name reflects the family name (ex. Kim, Lee, Shin, Park) and then a combination of syllables that act as a first name (Though there are 2 syllables or “names” in each Korean “first name” - just think of it like “Mary Pat” or “Bobbi Sue”). My sister’s name, Buyn Mal Sook, would tell someone that she is from the Buyn family and because of the position of the syllable “Mal”, she is from the 26th generation of the Buyn family. Ah, screw it
…Are there any Koreans that can explain this better than I can? It’s really interesting and, from an objective standpoint - kinda anal :slight_smile:

8

Thanks y’all on the corrections; although this adds a couple more questions [see below]. Now, I understand the idea of what patronymics are, and how… but why, in the “big picture” ? That’s to say, is there a common pattern to those cultures which use them ? (Interesting example from Korea, BTW.) Which language groups do/do not use them (besides the ones already mentioned) - or what inferences can be made by looking at cultural/language groups that do/do not use them ?

For example: Is it related to use of writing, or recordkeeping for say, land-holdings in agricultural societies ? or long-term subjugation by an occupying power (more likely)? Reflecting a “feudal” political system somewhere in that linguistic groups’ history ? It seems to run the opposite, counterintuitively, to the use of writing; I’d have thought it would be an oral tradition.

Pluto: the sig line is “Chief’s language” which translates roughly as “sins of the nobles should be punished, sins of the commoners should be despised”. Several contexts: this is referring to smaller “violations”, where the ali’i both should be held to a higher standard, and can be expected to be able to pay the fines (pigs, feasts…) unlike the common folk, whose penalty is to be reminded of their station in life. In the context of the SDMB, a analogy might be “debate the Moderators over an error, but don’t waste time on the trolls…”

[autoslap mode]:
1: Ibn, of course; violated my own rule not checking it first… 2: I can’t find a reference explaining the source of the -ez ending. Is that Moorish influenced ? Latinate ? 3. Apologies about the Gaelic-English business; for this purpose, feudal history and such, I was thinking they could be grouped together.[autoslap mode off]

9

fa’afetai.

“… a seriously demented but oddly addictive presence here.”
TVeblen

10

I understood the -ez in Spanish can be from the lord of the manor. Similar to the numerous Washingtons and Jeffersons, etc. who are descended from slaves in the US. ie, people who were surfs of Gonzalo, became Gonzalez, Hernan, Hernandez, etc. (unattested).

The “Y” in Spanish is the equivalent of the now ubiquitous hyphenated name.

This started for English in Britain when a male “Smith” (for example) married a more famous, but female “Plushbottom”. “Plushbottom-Smith” kept the noble house from seeming to dowdy in name, and could preserve a name that was close to death.

In Gaelic, O- is for men, Ni- for women, meaning child of, as does Mac-. I used to work with a Margaret O’Sullivan. Properly, she was “Magreth NiShuilihan”. Although this no longer implies her father’s first name is Shuilihan, as in days of old it would.

Any word in Spanish that begins with AL- is probably moorish - this applies to names as well. Not all but most. Check the definition, and the source becomes clear:
Almendras - almonds, Alcalde - mayor, etc.

Where the source of the “Al” in Arabic? Not sure. Spanish “El” comes from “Ille” and it’s forms, the closest Latin has to “the”, it means “that”. Hebrew for “the” is “ha”, close to the Arabic, if you assume the common root to be something like “hal”, but I’m not sure about this.

Ben- and Ibn- are essentially the same word. As many Jews spoke Arabic in the middle ages, often their names were indistinguishable from their Moslem neighbors, unless the name was specifically Korannic.

11

An interesting point about timelines. I knew an Assyrian who was 2nd generation American. His father’s first and last name were the same - why? Because he had no last name in the mountain village he came from, only a “son of” name that was not passed down, but changed each generation.

12

As with Korean (IIRC), many Asian names follow the pattern of family name followed by individual name. I don’t know about name meanings.

Far enough back, I think in most cultures the names had meaning (first names - before last names). Somewhere, and I don’t know where, they became more traditional and less meaningful in their own right (at least in European languages - er, I’m speaking of English). Surnames came along out of two traditions. Either add the career (Baker), or add the parent’s (father’s) name. At some point tracking the lineage was more important to retain some first father’s name rather than you direct father’s name, and thus you get the modern line of names. I don’t know why this happened in some cultures and not others.

I don’t know why some put individual names first and family names second, and others the reverse. Perhaps there was a cultural difference as to the importance of family placement. Asian heritage seems to be very venerate toward their ancestors. Just a guess.

Also, I recall hearing that the Netherlands (I think?) that didn’t have last names. At some point when they were under another country’s (Britain?) control, last names were imposed. The Dutch didn’t really care and didn’t think it meant anything, so they gave themselves lots of silly names, similar to Harry The-guy-down-the-street. The names stuck, so now there are lots of funny names. Similar to the Afrikaans name above.

As for why last names are important, I can think of two guesses. First is when agriculturalism took over from hunter-gatherer groups, social settings became larger and larger. With a small group of closely related people, it’s easy to give individual names and tell each other apart. As societies got larger, it became more common to duplicate names, especially over generations, and thus it became important to distinguish Harry one from Harry two. Harry 1 is a baker and Harry 2 is a butcher.

Reason two for last names would be with the growth of the idea of ownership, and of family inheritance, especially land. With the tracing of wealth, it became important to trace who is the descendant of whom, to transfer the status/prestige/money to that person. That would give an explanation why it’s the father’s name that’s important. And you get class distinction between those with last names and those without. Later comes the expectation of last names, and the dubbing of the lower class by the names of their lieges. Or what have you.

I think this is mostly the European trend, but perhaps Asian culture had different progression. I’m just guessing.

13

To be more precise, Irish Gaelic patronymics are either Ó or Mac for men, either Ní or Nic for women, while Scots Gaelic patronymics are Mac for men and Nic for women (an exceedingly rare case of Scots Gaelic being LESS complex than Irish :))

Ó, by the way, originally meant “grandson of,” as did Ua which has perhaps mercifully fallen into disuse.

BTW, I’ve never seen the Magreth spelling (and in fact it violates a Gaelic spelling rule which there’s no need to go into here :)). She’d be Mairéad, or less commonly, Maighréad. Also, the only Sullivan translations I’ve seen have looked more like Súilleabháin (Suilihan would incidentally violate the same rule).

Oh, there’s also different prefixes for an Irishwoman’s married name … but I’ll stop here … :slight_smile:

14

My grandfather was the fifth child in his family. His father was Swedish and his mother was Danish. The first child was named after his paternal grandfather, the second after the maternal grandfather, and the rest were named after other close relatives. This was, according to their records, in keeping with Scandanavian tradition.

The third child died shortly after the fourth child was born. My grandfather, number five, was then given the name of the child who had died, number three. So there were two children with identical first, last and middle names, born in the same place to the same family, but separated in time by about two years.

This was explained to us as traditional as well. All of these children were boys – I don’t know if the “rules” were a lot different for girls, except that the repetition of the name of the child who had died wouldn’t cross gender lines. The next boy would be named after the boy that died, even if several girls were born before he was.

Finally my great-grandfather said he “took” the name of Anderson when he came to America. His father’s name was Andrew or Anders. I always thought the son automatically got the father’s name as a surname but great-grandpa’s statement makes it sound like it was more of a suggestion than a rule, at least at that time.

“pluto … a seriously demented but oddly addictive presence here.” – TVeblen

15

Also in Welsh (sorry SqrlCub but you don’t seem to be reading this thread :)) -

Rhys, the son of Griffith, was Rhys ap Griffith.

Angharad, the daughter of Griffith, was Angharad ferch (or verch) Griffith.

It’s been several hundred years since Welsh patronymics were used, though.

16

Mellonhead, my kids are also Korean Adoptees. Son’s name is Jang Dong Huhn. Jang is the family name, and Dong Huhn means “Bright Rainbow” . Daughter’s name is Cho Sung Hee. And, incredibly, I cannot remember what Sung Hee means ! :frowning:

Cartooniverse

If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.

17

In Polish you have either -owicz, -wicz or -icz to signify “son of”.

Jews often spelled -wicz as -vitz.

-czyk didn’t have any specific meaning and could be used to mean either “son of” or “from the town of” or just be a generic suffix.

18

Actually -czyk does usually mean “son of”. -czuk or -chuk is the Ukranian form.

-iak is the metrnymic form. If the mother was a single parent or a widow sometimes her children would use her name +iak. (Dorota -> Dorociak)

19

Thanks for the details above on Gaelic names Ruadh - I was going from oral memory, and had not seen it written. No doubt I heard “Maighréad” with a soft final “d”.

20

In Spanish, the -ez usage starts getting recorded during the Asturian period – the 700s and 800s. The -ez seems to be of Germanic origin somewhat analogous to the -'s ending of English and some German possessives. Hernando’s son would be Hernandez, Rodrigo’s Rodriguez, etc.; in the case of royalty, the dynastic number would go in between the two names (Sancho II Garces). Notice the pattern councides well with Spanish grammar: modifier after the noun. BTW this did not apply to all names even at the time. Through most of the middle ages this meant that “surnames” would vary from one generation to the next. Later the nobility took up place names to supplement the patronymics: Diego de Vivar’s son Rodrigo was Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar.
Jose, descendant of Diego.