They were horrendous. But I don’t think the case has been made that they (or at least all, or even most) of them can be blamed on Cuomo.
Why is “all, or even most” the standard? OK, let’s say 10% can be blamed on Cuomo. No big deal?
ISTM that all this discussion of “main drivers” and “thousands of deaths” is a distraction. It was a disastrous policy and probably contributed to a lot of deaths. That’s bad enough.
You didn’t answer SL’s question – what was Cuomo supposed to do? And, yes, if only 10% were because of this policy, it’s not as big a deal as lying about the numbers.
So what would have been the right policy?
That’s a bit out of scope here. Possibly segregated facilities for those who had been infected, and/or possibly using what turned out to be an excess of emergency hospital facilities (e.g. the Javits Center, the Navy ship).
My main point was that it’s a mistake to deflect the issue by saying that forcing in covid-positive patients was not the “main driver” and did not cause “all, or even most” of the deaths. That’s the wrong standard to use. If you think there was really no alternative, then you need to defend it on those grounds.
I’m less concerned about how he handled that part of the COVID crisis, since he (and everyone) was working in the dark back then. His handling of that is not what’s going to get him to resign (if anything will), and it’s basically a right-wing attack fairly unconnected with the other, very valid, reasons to criticize him.
As much as I hate to defend Cuomo for anything, I have defended it on those grounds.
It’s kind of a bob-and-weave, duck and cover argument to attack a policy as wrong and responsible for thousands of deaths and then call any request that you show that another policy would have been better “a bit out of scope.”
You (and others here - see the quotes above) are basically calling Cuomo a mass murderer. You’re wrong, but when called on to back up your claim, you say that’s “out of scope.”
Here’s what you’ve gotta do to make your claim more credible than a Fox News talking point.
First, show that other states with different policies, and with comparable populations in comparable care facilities, didn’t suffer horrifying death rates in nursing homes and care facilities, and if there are any, show that the lower rates are due to a policy of excluding or expelling those suffering from COVID.
Second, show that Cuomo had better alternatives available to him, alternatives equipped to provide the highly specialized care needed by nursing home residents, and with infection control procedures that would prevent the spread of COVID. And adequate staff who were also somehow protected in those early days from COVID, so that COVID couldn’t be carried into the facility by a care provider. Can you do that? And no, tents in Central Park, or a ship equipped as a floating emergency room aren’t workable alternatives. That ship was supposed to free up hospital beds for COVID patients, not be an alternative nursing home, and its staff was not trained to handle nursing home residents. Also, it would not accept COVID-positive patients.
On top of its strict rules preventing people infected with the virus from coming on board, the Navy is also refusing to treat a host of other conditions. Guidelines disseminated to hospitals included a list of 49 medical conditions that would exclude a patient from admittance to the ship.
The Comfort was built to operate in battlefield conditions, and its physicians accustomed to treating young, otherwise healthy soldiers suffering from injuries related to gunshots and bomb blasts. Most people who are hospitalized with Covid-19 are older and infected with a novel pathogen that even the world’s top medical researchers do not fully understand.
(Source)
From the same story:
Across the city, hospitals are overrun. Patients have died in hallways before they could even be hooked up to one of the few available ventilators in New York.
One of the reasons for Cuomo’s directive is that it was incredibly important to move patients out of hospitals as fast as possible. They had to be discharged. And they had to be discharged to somewhere. So nursing homes were required to permit stabilized patients to return. Again, what was the alternative?
I don’t know where you live, but NYC was a horror show then. Funeral homes literally had refrigerated trucks parked outside to handle the bodies. When my father was diagnosed with COVID, we prepared for the worst and desperately tried to find a funeral home that would handle things when/if he died (he didn’t, thank God, but at the time we thought he would). Funeral homes weren’t even returning phone calls. And hospitals were giving care in corridors, in basements, in storage areas, even in parking lots in a northeastern March. So yes, Cuomo had to do what he could to move patients in and out as fast as possible.
You can dismiss it as a Fox New talking point, that’s fine.
Personally I think it’s true. My opinion is primarily based on the fact that I know a lot of people in the nursing home business in NY and elsewhere (e.g. my wife’s brother runs a nursing home, though his is in PA) and they know other people in the same field, and they told me at the time this policy was instituted that the overwhelming consensus of people in the field - based on intricate knowledge of nursing home procedures and processes etc. - was that this was a disastrous policy which would inevitably lead to the death of enormous numbers of people. What they said makes sense to me, based on everything else I’ve seen.
But YMMV, FWIW. I’m not trying to prove anything here.
Isolation and testing of hospital covid patients until confirmed free of the virus. Arrange for separation of covid patients from other nursing home residents. There are X number of homes and X number of patients. Divide both so the facilities remain separate. That way you can focus your resources on the facilities dedicated to covid instead of trying to cover all facilities.
There are other options but that is the easiest plan A.
Plan B would be to utilize any shuttered hotels as emergency nursing homes
Plan C would be to use Federal assets to build temporary nursing homes in stadiums as was done for temporary medical facilities.
Plan D would be to use hospital ships.
They are not in any order.
All good ideas (although relocating nursing home patients is a bigger deal than you seem to think it is – it can literally kill some residents). As I’ve said above, there are most certainly problems with nursing home management and staffing, and regulation thereof. Better staffing, better training, better equipment and better regulation would have saved lives. But those are problems that predate Cuomo (although he certainly bears responsibility for the quality of state regulation).
But all of those require readmitting COVID patients, once stabilized, into nursing homes. Which is what Cuomo’s directive did.
What shuttered hotels? Staffed by who?
How long would that take? The crisis was in March. Cuomo’s order was in effect from March 25 until May 10. Do you think the federal government could have had those nursing homes up and running in a matter of weeks? Do you think that the administration in power in March of last year, was going to build temporary nursing homes in stadiums in New York City to deal with COVID? Do you think that’s actually something that would have happened? And, in any event, what the federal government does or doesn’t do is not within the control of Andrew Cuomo. And the feds didn’t build temporary nursing homes in stadiums (why stadiums, I don’t know – they seem singularly unsuited to being converted to temporary nursing homes, but let’s go with it), as it happened, so Cuomo had to handle the situation somehow.
See my post above regarding a hospital ship sent to help New York. It didn’t turn out to be much help.
Cuomo (and again, I hate having to defend him) had days, maybe even hours, to create policies to deal with COVID. Second-guessing those policies is too easy. Of course they weren’t perfect. And of course people died. It’s a pandemic, that’s what happens.
I get that right-wingers want to basically eviscerate Cuomo. Go right ahead. There’s plenty of ammunition out there. And when or if he’s taken down, I think it will be a good day for New York State.
But this nursing home order isn’t the smoking gun you seem to think it is.
And, is not even on the list of things that he really has to worry about in terms of recent scandals (those being lying about COVID deaths, bullying other elected state officials, and sexual harassment), so I would love to see it dropped from this thread.
Fair enough. I’ve said just about everything I have to say about it, so I’d just be repeating myself anyway.
Agreed, if anything what takes him down related to that is the playing with the reporting of the numbers. That is something for which there can be no “we were all winging it at the time” attempt at justification. Counting is counting.
And you said it very well. Cuomo needs to go but not for his NH policy.
A sixth woman has leveled allegations of sexual harassment or inappropriate conduct against Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, after a supervisor in the Executive Chamber recently became aware the woman said that the governor inappropriately touched her late last year during an encounter at the governor’s mansion, where she had been summoned to do work.
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Cuomo-faces-new-allegation-of-sexual-harassment-16011424.php
How high is this number going to go? A dozen?
Guys that actually deliberately sexually harass rarely or almost never offend just once. It’s generally a pattern - compulsive for some, just a consistent lack of empathy in others. But if they’re the kind of guy who does it once they’re usually going to do it again and again.
My personal theory is that powerful men likely have a number of women who are attracted to their power and fly into their circle. They then gets used to it over time and starts thinking that all women are intoxicated by their presence. Cuomo needs to be jettisoned (and probably arrested) because otherwise he won’t stop. We also need to let powerful men that you can’t get away with this.
It can literally kill them to get covid. How do you think they got from the nursing home to the hospital? They would use the same transport system
But all of those require readmitting COVID patients, once stabilized, into nursing homes. Which is what Cuomo’s directive did.
[/quote]
And he literally sent stabilized covid patients back to nursing homes. Stabilized doesn’t mean covid-free.
Any hotel currently not used. Staffed by Army or National Guard units.
For the Central Park operation, “the trucks left North Carolina on the morning of March 28 and arrived in New York that evening,” Megan Vitek, program manager of Samaritan’s Purse International Health Unit, told USA TODAY. “We treated our first patients on April 1.”
“We pre-stage everything and put it on pallets, ready to deliver,” Vitek said. “It’s a very systematized operation.”
All that shows is that the state of New York didn’t utilize it.
It’s not his job to reinvent the wheel. It’s his job to hire people who are already skilled in mobile field hospitals and medical logistics. I’ve simply pointed out the obvious.
Then you should also get that his own party is doing it. It’s a Democratic state.
Top NYS Democrats withdraw support for Cuomo
That may be so in some cases, but I suspect that often it’s the other way around. Namely, the type of men who egocentrically assumes that he’s entitled to inappropriately pursue, and even assault, women who haven’t made overtures to him is likely to be the same type of man who egocentrically pursues other forms of dominance and self-aggrandization, including political power.
IME guys who start out decent and considerate towards women don’t forget how to be decent and considerate if they later acquire some popularity or prestige and get pursued by some “groupie” types. A powerful man who’s an asshole towards women was usually an asshole towards women all along; it’s just that he had less scope for his asshole behavior back before he was powerful.
You think army and NG units can properly care for sick elderly patients in hotel rooms? Ay caramba.
According to the article you cited the Democrats have withdrawn support for every reason except his directions on nursing homes. I’m completely with Saintly_Loser on this; there was no other obvious and easy action for Cuomo to take at that time.