And one of the fundamental problems on the roads is that a significant percentage of drivers not only drive around most of the time without paying much attention but, whether or not they are willing to admit it, believe that it’s not really a big deal. Thus it becomes the cyclists’ problem, or the pedestrians’ problem, when they have the sheer effrontery to try and use the road in a manner to which they are morally and legally entitled.
I’ve been driving for over 25 years, on three continents, and I’ve never even come close to hitting a cyclist who was using the road in a safe and legal manner. I’ve almost mowed down a few who ran stop signs or red lights, or who turned in front of me without warning, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about people using public roads in an appropriate manner. If you can’t avoid hitting those people with your car then, whatever the road conditions, and whatever the weather conditions, you are the asshole.
I’m not surprised to see such victim shaming from folks like ThelmaLou, but it is nevertheless quite disheartening.
Keep up the good fight, those of you who have chosen to take her and others to task. Even if you don’t convince her or anyone else who posts here, maybe you will convince some readers who haven’t spoken up in this thread.
Get off my case unless you can argue more logically than you have so far. You’re embarrassing yourself. This isn’t victim blaming, so stop seeing it that way because you’re wrong about my point. Just knock it off.
Statistics are irrelevant. They only refer to what happens to groups. Statistics can’t predict what will happen to one person at a given time.
I’m very sorry about all the people who die or are injured on bikes, in cars, in planes, on skateboards, or walking. I’m doing my best not to be one of them. Each person has to weigh the risks and benefits of every activity and make his/her own decision. My decision for me is to minimize my exposure to OTHER PEOPLE’S bad decisions (and this includes other drivers).
WHAT??? Victim SHAMING??? I just want to stay alive. If YOU want to ride your bike in heavy traffic and get killed by someone who is texting while drunk even though YOU had the right of way, have at it. And your spouse and kids can do without you for the rest of their lives. I’m sure the fact that you were in the *right *and the car drive was criminally negligent will be a great comfort to them.
What is the matter with you people… reading “victim shaming” into what I’m saying?
What is it that you people are trying to convince me of that I’m not seeing??? I’m all ears/eyes.
This one is decent enough. Nothing fancy but quite serviceable. The part I’m talking about is a recent extension built to give people access to the social services offices and an oft-used ballpark that are on the edge of town. I’m not sure why this cyclist felt he had to ride on the road (especially with traffic coming from behind him). Guess he just felt like getting killed…
FWIW, bike paths are just as dangerous for cyclists, if it is a multi-use path they are VERY dangerous if you are a fast (aka not sunday recreational user) cyclist. Plus cars are much more predictable than walkers.
But I have to ask, freeways are far more dangerous than surface roads for car drivers, do you avoid freeways when you drive places…or do you just feel like getting killed?
The traffic coming from behind him should be able to see him with no problem.
It is quite clear you are just irked that he delayed you by a few seconds.
It may be useful if you google “victim shaming” because I don’t think it means what you think it means…because you just…umm…did another victim shaming post.
What a load of crap…statistics don’t matter? what? Only your irrational blathering that you can’t back up with any data matters?
Your irrational, imaginary fears will disappear from the earth when your poor cardio health ends your life early.
The fear, uncertainty and doubt you are spewing is purely based on your ignorance and a unfounded feeling of entitlement for exclusive use of public property.
The bolded section here is a textbook example of victim-shaming. It is no different from telling a rape victim she deserved it because she went to a frat party in a short skirt.
But you seem kind of dumb, so I bet you’re still not going to get it.
Anyway. We all make the “the risks do not outweigh the rewards” decisions with our safety all the time. I think those of us who do ride on the road get upset with the attitude that roads are unsafe by their nature. They are not. They are MADE unsafe by bad drivers who are either aggressive or aren’t paying attention, cyclists who don’t follow the laws, and pedestrians who just step out into the road without looking. The problem is when we just lump all that together into a “the roads are dangerous and you have a death wish to ride on them” kind of attitude, because it is totally unproductive.
You mentioned getting run over by drunk drivers or someone texting while driving and then used that as a reason to not ride a bike. Those are certainly risks we all have to weigh, but to use that to draw the conclusion that bikes should stay out of the roads is misguided. That argument sounds to me like that means that we should have better enforcement of laws against drinking and driving or texting and driving. Those things are a threat to all road users, not just cyclists. It sounds a lot like victim blaming or shaming to say “well the roads are dangerous, if you’re on them enough you’re gonna get hit”. It doesn’t and shouldn’t have to be like that.
I gotta love the whole ‘riding legally where it is too dangerous’ bit.
Dangerous according to who?
To hear some talk, merely using a two wheeled vehicle without a motor is far too dangerous for any circumstances.
To even more, there mere act of cycling on a road used by automobiles is far too dangerous.
To others, like the OP, select roads they personally decide are too dangerous for cyclists.
There are roads I do not bike on, simply because my commute and casual riding does not bring me to them. I would not know if they are too dangerous. There are roads I am legally not allowed to ride on, such as our interstate system. There are roads that I avoid because I don’t like the neighborhood they go through. There roads that are badly designed even for cars that I try to avoid. In these cases, most of the decision of danger was mine.
If these roads are so dangerous for cyclists (according to some), and yet enough cyclists are on them to lead to people to complain about them being there. It would seem to me that if there was an actual problem then cyclist-car collisions on that road would show a spike compared to other roads. This has rarely been that case that I can see. Invariably it comes down to the driver deciding that it must not be safe for cycling, not the cyclists themselves. Nothing good has ever come of that attitude.
Those aren’t reasons not to ride a bike; they are reasons for ME not to ride a bike in heavy traffic.
As far as I’m concerned, the whole world can ride their bikes in heavy traffic. I’M not going to take the chance. No one who reads my words should extrapolate to assuming I mean no one should ever ride bikes on busy roads. HOWEVER, I will remind y’all of the title of this thread.
The title of this thread is NOT, “Cyclists who ride on wide, low traffic, straight, well-lighted roads that have clearly designated bike lanes and are nevertheless harassed by asshole drivers.”
The title is “Cyclists who DELIBERATELY ride on DANGEROUS roads.”
And I think a woman (and anyone else) should be safe from any violence regardless of her/his attire, or, frankly, LACK of attire, or anything else. Rape is a crime and the person who commits it is a criminal. It is NEVER the victim’s fault.
It’s NOTNOTNOTNOTNOTNOT the bike rider’s fault if s/he is killed/injured due to a driver’s negligence, whether simple carelessness or criminal negligence. It is NOTNOTNOTNOTNOT the victim’s fault. But the victim is STILL DEAD. Permanently.
And on the victim’s tombstone it will say “He had the right of way.” That IS not blaming the victim and no one can convince me it is. It is a regrettable circumstance and it shouldn’t be that way, but it is REALITY.
Death is a very final thing. You don’t recover from it. Maybe my perspective is colored by the fact that 1) I’m old, 2) I’ve ceased to believe in my own immortality and the immortality of those I love, 3) I’ve ceased to believe in my own invincibility and the invincibility of those I love.
You all are gravely misusing the term “victim shaming.” You’re mixing up two different things and letting emotion and your conviction of your own immortality and invincibility screw up your thinking. You’re saying it should be this way and it should be that way, and I agree, it should. But it isn’t. Things are not the way they should be. I think it’s practical to deal with things the way they ARE not the way they SHOULD be. Which means that it would be safer for cyclists to avoid dangerous roads insofar as it is possible rather than deliberately ride on dangerous roads. I would think they would prefer that rather than deliberately riding on dangerous roads just because they feel entitled to. The same goes for runners. I see runners at rush hour running on the shoulder of busy highways and it boggles my mind. But I guess that’s a separate rant.
Again, I ask you: who decides what is ‘dangerous’. Very often it seems the definition of ‘dangerous’ seems to coincide far, far too often with ’ the cyclist slows me down on this road - wah!'. That is excuse making. That is gross selfishness trying to disguise itself in the mantle of ‘road safety’. Look at the rest of this thread and see how the definition of ‘dangerous’ seems to meld into ‘bikes can’t go as fast as cars potentially can so they should be off the road, nyah!’. There’s rarely any danger on these so-called ‘dangerous roads’, just temporarily inconvenienced drivers.
If a road truly is too dangerous, believe me cyclists will probably be aware of it and avoid it. That is their judgement at work, not yours. Yes, you might occasionally find someone who had no choice but to ride said road, or someone who is the road choosing equivalent of the guy riding at night against traffic in dark clothes but again - their choice, not yours.
You can’t be convinced, obviously, but it still is victim-blaming, no matter how cemented your mind is. That is the very definition of victim blaming.
Wait - seriously? You think cyclists are convinced they are invincible and immortal? How more wrong can you be?
Believe me, we know about our vulnerability, and we also know that our lives can be taken just as easily on an alleged “nice safe road” as on what the OP declared to be “dangerous”.
And again, the decision of what is a ‘dangerous’ road is for the cyclist to decide.
I’d wager far more cyclists are injured & killed on roads with nice safe bike lanes than on the road described in the OP.
Glad you are happy to admit you can’t be convinced of anything. You’re still totally wrong.
I agree with everything Mr. Miskatonic wrote. Your definition of what is a ‘dangerous’ road is not only subjective but probably very wrong. Your working definition seems to be any road where a driver might get slowed down behind a cyclist.
There’s an thread going on elsewhere about whether or not cyclists are visible. Time and time again, it’s been shown that the safest place for a cyclist to be is as a part of traffic because that’s where they are the most visible. By far the most common accidents are parked car doors swinging open and by cars turning in front of cyclists. The kind of accident where a driver rear ends a cyclist is pretty rare, specifically because drivers are looking straight ahead and expect to see traffic there. Being in the center of the lane is the legal, safe position for a cyclist to take. You would probably consider this “DELIBERATELY riding on a DANGEROUS” road. It’s not.
I live in Pennsylvania. The state here has a 4-foot passing law. We have bike lanes that hug parked cars. Putting cyclists in these lanes is putting them in a place where drivers can safely ignore them and where parked car doors may fly open. I can’t tell you how many close passes I’ve had while in a bike lane, because drivers seem to assume that because I’m in my separate place that the 4 foot law does not apply. There are many bike lanes that are totally safe and useful, but sadly there are many that are more dangerous for cyclists as opposed to simply claiming the lane.
You don’t get to determine what is safe and what is dangerous for someone else. If the cyclist is not using something that you think is better, safer or just as good as the road they’re on… it’s probably because they are highly aware of their mortality, not unaware.
When a bunch of people are trying to explain over and over again that you are wrong, you might want to think for just a moment, “hey, maybe I’m wrong!”
When you are driving your car on a less than ideal road the impetus should be on you to watch out for more vulnerable traffic.
Now it is a dangerous place for bicyclists because people like you make it so. Making a road dangerous is what constitutes a bad driver.
You don’t know where they are going, you don’t know if they even know about the other, safer route.
You should be writing to your local authorities for better roads, better signing. You should most definitely not be complaining to strangers on the other side of the world.
Do something constructive to improve the situation or just be normal, considerate human being and ease off the throttle.
It’s the total absence of any responsibility that you are pinning on the person who commits the vehicular manslaughter. Every post you’ve made on the subject has focused 100% on the role the cyclist played in their own death and none, at all, on the person who actually did the killing.
Every one of your posts is repeating your mantra a cyclist could have lived, if only THEY had done something different, like choosing a different route, or a different road, or a different time. It’s abundantly clear you’re “blaming the victim” for their own death because your position is the cyclist could have avoided it.
She could have avoided rape if only she’d dressed differently. She could have avoided rape if only she’d walked down a different street. She could have avoided rape if only she’d walked down the street at a different time. It doesn’t matter what she did wrong, she’s still raped!
There’s you victim blaming, right there. A 100% parallel.
