Dads your Humble opinion please...

In My Humble Opinion
21

I don’t think that is what the others meant. There is absolutly nothing wrong with teaching your child to defend himself when the need arises. I think that the consensus here is that the child should only resort to violence when nothing else works and he/she needs to defend himself.

Unfortunately if the kid is being picked on already, no behavior that he changes (or anything he does differently for that matter) isn’t going to stop the bully from picking on him. In the bully’s mind, the kid is already a target. I know this from experience. I was bullied in 9th grade by a kid. I asked my dad what to do. He said start picking on him and that doing so would make him back down. It didn’t work and only escalated the situation. In his mind, I was already a target and nothing I did or said changed that.

Regarding the OP:
As a parent, I would let the school know, but be sure to do it quietly as you don’t want the bully to get wind of this. Take the suggestions of Spritle and document every meeting you have with the teacher, administration, etc. regarding the bully situation so that you know they are aware of this and responsible for it.

As for the child, I would try to teach the child how to deal with this bully by using his words and wit, and only fight if the bully if he feels he will get physically hurt. If you can’t teach your kid to defend himself, look at a martial arts class. In addition to learning self defense techniques, the child will learn disipline and restraint.

I hope all goes well for him. I was one who got picked on by bullies throughout most of my school career. It’s not fun and can cause kids to have a lot of stress too soon in their life.

22

I don’t know if I agree with this. I think it is wrong to teach your kids to respond to every situation with violence, certainly. But when someone is unfairly physically abusing you (assuming no weapons are involved of course), physical violence, in my opinion, is justified. I will certainly not teach my kids to roll over and take someone else’s abuse. Wit and words may be enough for some situations, but not all.

23

I agree with what Cardinal suggested about a good amount of the “bullying” I see going on.

If your kid is getting teased, when is it appropriate to hit?
If the other kids are being excluded from games, …

I’m not suggesting that no kids ever get beaten up. But my experience is that the vast majority of “bullying” does not warrant a physical response.

And I really do not want to talk to the other kid’s parents. Even if their kid is frigging Damien, they may not know it by his behavior at home. And even if they do know it, they sure aren’t gonna admit it to you.

Final point, as lousy as this sounds, you might not want to simply rely on your kid’s representation of what is happening. Might be a reason for talking to the teacher, playground monitors, school social worker, etc. to get another view on the personalities and dynamics going on.

My kids are overall really good kids. But I can remember getting burned a couple of times when they related some unfairness they experienced. Only after I went in guns ablazing to their defense did I learn that my spawn were capable of being less than the most accurate and objective sources of information.

I think the value of most self defense training for kids is vastly over-rated. I think there are very few incidents where a kid really need to use physical force to defend him/herself against other kids, and I think it is very difficult for a kid to defend themself against a determined adult. I do it with my kids, just because it is my hobby and something I enjoy doing with them.

Let me suggest a couple of alternatives. If you have a boy, teach him some wrestling basics. At some point, all the kids will start wrestling for fun. Your kid’s position in the pecking order will shoot up several notches if he is not always at the bottom of the pile. For a boy or girl, teach them to arm wrestle. A possibility for a non-violent physical dominance test. Or better yet, tho less direct, help your kid identify something he/she loves, encourage them to excel at it, and bolster their self esteem. IMO, that will carry them a heck of a lot farther than the ability to kick someone in the nuts.

Why encourage your child to resort to a violent physical response when other alternatives exist?

24

Of course that is a typo.

“If the other kids are excluding him from games, …”

25

A few thoughts, but first some background:

When I was in in seventh grade I was hands-down, no-contest, the most unpopular kid in the entire junior high. Teased? Mercilessly. Bullied? That too.

Telling my parents did not work. My mom called the bully’s mom (the bully was another girl) and it played out exactly as SPRITLE says – the girl just had one more thing to bully me about.

Telling the teachers did not work. They had the mindset that taking a certain amount of teasing was just inherent in going to school. To be fair, I doubt that any of them realized just how bad it was for me, and I also must say there seems to be much more awareness of the dangers of bullying, and much less tolerance of it nowadays than when I was that age in the early eighties. (And I believe I have proven my status as an old fogey by actually using the term “nowadays.”)

I am absolutely no fan of violence, but what worked for me in the end was fighting back, and hard. Now, I’m no hard-bodied physical specimen, and I certainly wasn’t then, so I wasn’t really winning these fights. In fact, of the three I remember, I came out the worse for it in two of them. But though I might be hurt worse, I made damn sure the other person was hurt too. The message was delivered that if you want to mess with me you’d better be willing to go to the mat to do it.

If my son or daughter was being teased, I would tell them to ignore it or laugh it off. Easy advice to give but hard to do, as I well remember – especially when the opinion of your peers is so important – but that’s all you can do when the attack is “only” verbal. If my son or daughter was being physically bullied, I would tell them to defend themselves, and I would work on getting them to tools to do so. If you’re pushed, do your best to disengage and walk away, but if you can’t, let 'em have it. Even if you lose the fight you’ll still establish yourself as someone who can’t be bullied with impunity.

26

All right, I promise I’ll drop this shortly. But you may recall from previous threads that this is an issue of no small concern to me. My son, now 12, has a long history of being “bullied” sinnce kindergarten. He is now doing quite well in 6th grade, but there were some tough times. I understand the pain involved.

Jodi, I appreciate your story. I am so sorry you had to go through that, and so glad you were able to successfully counter it. That must have been so hard. But how commonly do you believe the type of physical predation you describe occurs? My non-expert WAG is that the situation you describe is towards an extreme end of the continuum of childhood ostracism.

A couple of questions I would like answered, especially by those who feel a need to teach/encourage their kids in physical self defense.

-What degree of instigation warrants a what specific physical response by your child? Please be specific and give an example.

-As best you can figure, what will be the bully’s response?

-What do you do if your kid is clearly less physically adept than the “bully”, and highly unlikely to be able to prevail in a physical confrontation? Do you still encourage him to throw a punch, even if he will likely end up hurt worse?

-What do you do if your child seriously injures another kid, even if (in your view) it was self defense?

-How do you respond if the school takes action against your kid for throwing the first punch? (Let me suggest that if you believe your kid is the victim of a pattern of abuse and if you are counseling that he fight back, you may wish to at least create the appearance of trying to go through channels by reporting - in writing - it to the school first.)

My position is, anything less than physical violence does not merit a physical response. Physical violence towards my children is NOT tolerated. Immediate attention is DEMANDED from the school. Repeated or aggravated instances of physical violence towards my kid would be reported to the cops.

27

DINSDALE –

I don’t know. I can only speak for myself, and it was a long time ago. I certainly would acknoweldge being at the extreme end of the continuum at that time; there was no one lower down the food chain than I was.

IMO, a physical aggression may be met with a physical response of the same or proportionate type. If the child is shoved, asks the other kid to stop, and is shoved again, he or she may shove back. I fully realize this is likely to escalate rapidly. I don’t see what the alternative is that protects the bullied child, unless you have teachers willing to intervene and be vigilant in protecting the child. Maybe teachers are better at this today – they certainly ought to be – but they weren’t when I was a kid, because they didn’t think it was important or a big deal. It is a big deal to be bullied.

Either to back off or to escalate the conflict to a fight.

I think there’s a difference between encouraging a child to defend himself if necessary and encouraging him to throw a punch. But I would encourage my child to do whatever he felt most comfortable with. If that means getting a teacher or backing off, so be it. I would never encourage him to fight. But I would not expect getting the teacher or backing off to solve the problem in the long term, and I would not prevent my son from defending himself if he chose to try to do so. I know from personal experience there can be great value in even fights you lose, since you establish yourself as someone willing to take and give a little punishment rather than put up with bullying. But it is obviously wrong and unrealistic to expect a child to take a beating, so that decision must be up to him. Again, it is not a matter of encouraging fighting but rather a matter of supporting a child’s right to defend himself if he so chooses.

I’m not sure what I do; I suppose that’s dependent upon the circumstances. If my child was not the instigator – as he damn well better not be – I don’t think I’d “do” anything. Feel bad, probably, but certainly not do anything in terms of punishing my child. But I’m not sure how the other kid would be seriously injured by mine. Did he hit his head on the way down? Not my problem, IMO. Or did my son beat the shit out of him? Then it wasn’t self-defense, and that’s a BIG problem.

I punish my child, because self-defense is not consistent with throwing the first punch. But I also take the school to task for failing to rectify a situation where my child felt so put-upon he resorted to throwing a punch.

I absolutely agree. I am not saying “let kids be kids and they’ll work it out themselves.” That was the thinking when I was in school, and I felt (and still feel) that the school failed in its duty to me by having such an attitude. I did work it out myself, but only because I had to. If you think that working with or through the school is enough to protect your child, then that’s obviously what you should do. I have no idea what it’s like to parent a child today, but when I was a child, depending upon the school would not have been enough – it was not enough, because they didn’t care about the problem.

I think physical violence should always be defensive and always an absolute last resort. I don’t intend to let my kids hit each other, and I don’t intend to let them hit others. But if – IF – a bullying situation comes up AND the school cannot or will not take care of it, I will tell my child that he can defend himself if he feels he has to.

28

I agree with a lot of what is being said. And I, like a lot of you, have had my share of teasing/bulying. I didn’t have much support from my parents, though, because they always told me to tell the teacher, which as we’ve seen never works.

My problem was that it wasn’t one bully, but a group. I was a big kid. A BIG kid. And I was(am) as slow as a continential plate. Because of my size I became the defacto object of the bullies’ affection. They would circle me like a pack of wolves and start taunting me. While I was yelling at one person, someone behind me would sneak up and hit me in the head and run away. I could never catch these kids and they (wisely) would not stand toe to toe with me. I remember distincly, how they ruined my favorite coat by ripping the hood off while trying to spin me.

A few years later, one of the bullies didn’t run when I aproached. I took a swing at him that was supposed to miss him by an inch in front of his face. He went to duck my punch and would have, if I had been aiming for him. But I caught him on the jaw and knocked a tooth out. He went home crying and his parents talked to my parents and I got grounded for a week. But after that, most everyone left me alone.

Except for two bullies. They surronded me once in the fifth grade and started taunting me. I threatened that I knew karate and I was ready to use it. The kid in front of me said, “Oh yeah? Show me a kick.” So I did. I had no intention of hitting him either. However, just as I started my kick, the kid behind me attacked. When you do a Tae Kwon Do kick, you thrust your foot out and pull your elbow back. Well, I hit the kid behind me with my elbow and knocked him about 5 feet back. From then on, I was free of bullying.

Oo, oo, oooo! Just thought of another one, but I didn’t hit anyone, intentionally or otherwise, but my reputation preceeded me. There was a guy in my fifth grade math class. He had some birth defect that left him with no forearms or hands, just a couple malformed fingers protruding from the elbow joint. He used his elbow joint as a hand, grasping and manipulating things that way. I was rather impressed by what he could do. Not to mention write, he played some damn good drums. But he started calling me fat. He wasn’t a good kid. He was already in a gang (remember: fifth grade) and I was rather afraid of him. At first I just told him to shut up and leave me alone. But he wouldn’t. I threatened to tell and whatnot to no avail. Finally, I figured I’d fight fire with fire and started making fun of his obvious flaws. Well, he “dropped” his pencil and after he got up to get it and was heading back to his desk, he hit me right in the eye with his elbow. Immediately, I jumped up, rage coursing through my veins. I was crying more from the anger than from the pain at the time. The desk and chair went flying. The change in his expression from indifferent cockiness to outright horror would have made me laugh if I wasn’t so angry. My hands were clenched, my face was burning. I was barely in control. The kid ran into the corner and kneeled on the floor cowering saying, “I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry…” over and over again. I just turned and walked up to the teacher and explained what happened. I don’t remember what happened to him, but I don’t remember much teasing after that.

I’m not advocating needless violence, but a boy should be able to defend himself with worrying about getting hit by his parents afterwards. School has a very definite social structure. Some kids are lucky enough to not have to fight to gain some respect. Other kids do. Telling your kid not to fight just puts handcuffs on him, and causes even more stress. Face it, life is all about fighting in one way or another. Whether you’re fighting for a promotion or fending off attacks of unscrupulous coworkers. Bullying is just more primative, but 6 year olds are more primative. Teach your kids to stick up for themselves or they will be whupped all their life.

29

My son is one of the larger kids in his class, but he’s also pretty timid. He’s not likely at all to start a fight.

He told me that some of the bullies were pushing around his best friend, and he stepped in to stop it. They started to threaten him, but he walked away. Later, he asked me what he should do if they threaten him again. I told him that he has already walked away once, and he doesn’t need to walk away any more. I told him that, if he feels actually threatened, to remove the threat and use whatever means he needs.

I’m serious as a heart attack, here. Nobody has to turn the other cheek. If you honestly feel threatened, it’s your right to defend yourself.

I’ve taught him everything I know about street fighting, and a few other things I’ve picked up growing up in the inner city. I’ve told him that the only rule in a street fight is that there are no rules.

And, I’ll tell you what, if he’s fighting to protect himself, and the school decides to punish him in any way, I won’t allow it. I wouldn’t allow them to keep him after class, or if he gets suspended, I’ll make his suspension days a picnic.

With respect to those who have said, “Tell the teacher,” I’m sorry, but that’s BS. It will simply perpetuate the torment as well as getting the kid labeled as a snitch or someone who can’t defend him/herself.

Fight back, with intensity and determination, and you won’t need to do it often.

30

My son is one of the larger kids in his class, but he’s also pretty timid. He’s not likely at all to start a fight.

He told me that some of the bullies were pushing around his best friend, and he stepped in to stop it. They started to threaten him, but he walked away. Later, he asked me what he should do if they threaten him again. I told him that he has already walked away once, and he doesn’t need to walk away any more. I told him that, if he feels actually threatened, to remove the threat and use whatever means he needs.

I’m serious as a heart attack, here. Nobody has to turn the other cheek. If you honestly feel threatened, it’s your right to defend yourself.

I’ve taught him everything I know about street fighting, and a few other things I’ve picked up growing up in the inner city. I’ve told him that the only rule in a street fight is that there are no rules.

And, I’ll tell you what, if he’s fighting to protect himself, and the school decides to punish him in any way, I won’t allow it. I wouldn’t allow them to keep him after class, or if he gets suspended, I’ll make his suspension days a picnic.

With respect to those who have said, “Tell the teacher,” I’m sorry, but that’s BS. It will simply perpetuate the torment as well as getting the kid labeled as a snitch or someone who can’t defend him/herself.

Fight back, with intensity and determination, and you won’t need to do it often.

31

Maybe not. I used it last year, when my (6 year old) son was having a lot of ongoing trouble with a neighborhood bully (about 11). I told my son to fight back if he felt he could, but he didn’t feel that he could, considering the age differential (and that kid is pretty big even for an 11 year old). Spoke to the kid’s father, guy said this can’t be allowed to happen, and things got better.

I imagine it would depend on what type of parents and what type of bully. If the kid is a rebellious kid in general, I guess you can’t hope for too much success. But if the bully is just a socially awkward loser, looking to feel big by beating up someone littler than himself, you have a better shot.

32

Mom checking in…

I have a 2 year old son, with another on the way, so I know I will be dealing with this sooner than I can imagine.

I must lean towards the “stand up for yourself with a vengeance” stance. Experience? Not much. As a girl in junior high, I got in one fight. It was ostensibly with only one other girl, but her friends helped (kneeling behind me as I backed up so I fell, etc). I’m not even sure anyone got hit, but it was scary and humiliating. I still wish I had kicked her ass sideways.

My husband had an Ender Wiggin-type situation with a bully. He knew he would continue to be picked on and beaten up unless he did something decisive, so he called the bully’s bluff and fought him. The bully went down, and hubby proceeded to hit him with his skateboard until someone else stopped him. His reputation preceeded him from that point on. No, he wasn’t particularly violent or big, he was just determined not to live in fear.

And someone mentioned “playground monitors.” You were joking, right? Those people are retirees or homemakers who can’t get a job and make $5 an hour two hours a day talking by the water fountains, at least in CA elementary schools. In junior high, I think it’s just teachers who are pissed because they’re not getting a break during lunch and recess.

33

I’m definitely in the “defend yourself if you get attacked” camp – I’m just undecided whether or not “tell the teacher” is a good idea or a bad idea.

Perhaps the best thing would be to tell your son, “If the bully teases you, ask him to stop. If he doesn’t stop, ignore him. If he attacks you, wallop him back” (making sure to emphasize that he should only strike in self-defense).

I admit I’m a bit disappointed that the "tell the teacher option is not an effective deterrent, but the cynic in me realizes life is like that…

34

Just wondering, those of you who advocate your kids “defending themselves,” what exactly do you have in mind? Someone goes so far as to say “the only rule in a street fight is that there are no rules.”

So, what does junior do next time a kid pushes him or knocks his books out of his hand, and does it again the next day despite being asked/told not to? Elbow to the temple? Kick to the groin? Fingerjab to the eyes/throat? Heck, might as well manufacture/use any weapons available?

If you are instructing your child to do aything else, you are merely urging him/her to engage in some bullshit dominance ritual that you hope will work.

Sure, the playground monitors might be useless. But if your kid is victimized, you don’t have to accept that. Again, I presume we are talking about patterns of abuse, not isolated incidents. You - the parent - approach the teacher and the principal, and tell them in no uncertain terms that there is insufficient supervision. You also inform them of the identities of the protagonists. And you inform them that correcting this is their responsibility, and you will not accept recurrences. You hope this settles it, while documenting everything and preparing to go to the PTA, the school board, the other kids’ parents, the local news media, the cops, and/or an attorney as you see fit.

Do you advocate acting outside established societal institutions and resolving matters through physical violence in other aspects of your lives, or just where your kid is concerned?

35

I think we’ve all forgotten one other avenue of opportunity. If your kid doesn’t stand much of a chance in a real fight, does he know someone who can get his back who does stand an excellent chance?

I still remember:

We were at summer camp, probably ~ 10th grade for me, and we were getting into some big arguement over foosball (horrendously important, I know), and we felt that these other guys were being genuinely ill-mannered. Come to think of it, one of them honestly wanted to fight me, but I knew what would happen to me at a church camp, not mention from my Dad if I did, so I barely avoided it.

BUT:
When Kevin Bickford came over (having recently become about 6-3, 200lbs at 17), and asked, “Is there a problem here?”, all of sudden there wasn’t a problem. No problem at all. Things went very smoothly after that.

36

A dad here on a slippery slope.
I think the “Talk, Walk, Squawk” option should be your first course of action. I think a discussion with the teacher, playground monitor or principal should be investigated before assuming that it will not accomplish anything.
If you instruct your kid that going to the authority will do nothing but make the situation worse for him, that he needs to “knock him the fuck out!”, you’re doing everyone a disservice.
Suppose next time your kid sees the bully brandishing a knife or gun. Well you’ve given him tacit approval to retaliate in kind.
I just pray you have trigger locks on your guns because my kids and a lot of others are out there on the playground as well.

37

My daughter was in a similar situation as miniShake. We went the talk, walk, sqawk route. Things improved for a while but it turned out the bullies were just biding their time. Now they were mad at the stoolie(in their eyes).

Now one would sit behind her in the bus and hit her on the head. When reported the kid was moved to another seat but another of the group would take over.

This went on for a few days until I got fed up. I showed her how to punch properly and told her that the next time someone hits her on the bus to get up, turn around and pop the little bas… uh bugger on the nose. She did so and hasn’t been bothered since.

My daughter has slight physical handicaps. She couldn’t skip rope until well into 2nd grade. That is what got her picked on. She was an easy target. How do you tell her to change that.

When someone says "I’m not saying… But… The ‘but’ means they are saying just that.

You can’t place even a inkling of guilt on the victim.

d

38

Mother of a bullied kid and mother of a kid who decided independently that being a bully is a damned fine idea. He’s also half the size of the other kids and clumsy as all hell with the co-ordination of a spastic chicken.

A couple of terms ago, he worked very hard on making friends with two boys who were bullying him. He finally succeeded and the terrible threesome bonded nicely. It culminated in his two mates holding one boy down while my kid kicked the victim in the balls. Now quite frankly I think my kid should have been suspended from school along with the other 2 boys. As it was, I withdrew my kid from school until we could sort out a plan which meant my kid was safe (he was scared of being bullied) and that other kids were safe from my kid and his two mates.

The school principal, the guidance officer and his teacher all worked on making sure that the boys knew that violence was not an option and it did eventually work.

39

I didn’t, and if you think I did, you misread my post. And my son has a mild neurological disorder. Despite that, there were things he COULD do to make himself a less inviting victim.

40

Believe it or not, I didn’t get into too many confrontations. Myself, being one of the only white boys(and of Nordic heritage at that), I got a hell of a lot bigger than the Mexicans, so they mostly left me alone. Most gangsters are reluctant to just pull out their gun, the consequences are too great. They’d rather fight, and physical-wise, I had them trumped.

Plus, I didn’t talk much and usually never looked them in the eye. That helps, and I’d advise any young men to do the same. For some reason, they take eye contact as a form of challenge, sort of like bears.