Well, that sounds nice and politically correct; the only problem being that the bully probably is not going to be very impressed. You will note from history that this approach only works if the threat of force is behind it.
Shakes, I think you did the right thing; your son clearly needs to be able to defend himself. I would, however, talk to the principal and tell him in no uncertain terms what will happen if this punk touches your son again. They need to sit on this kid, otherwise
Huh?? Everyone above advocated exactly that!
If you want to be “realistic”, fists can’t protect you the way a .45 pistol can.
Where do we stop?
Father of a 16 month old, so I’ve got a lot of time. Reading these posts through, I have come to the following belief.
There is no one “correct” way for each situation. Walk, talk, squawk works sometimes. As I’m sure other times telling the teacher, getting the principal involved, calling the other parents, getting parents together, and defending ones’ self. Keep in close touch with your kids to know when they are having problems, then follow a logical plan with them to alleviate those problems.
I did martial arts for 4 years (Kenpo), and taught about 10 beginning classes. There was always at least one bullied or scared kid per class. What I always told them was that martial arts was one of the most difficult ways to control bullying, but if they would put the time and effort into martial arts, they would gain self confidence, physical skills, self-control, and the ability to physically defend themselves. Whatever it is that makes some kids targets in many cases will go away after 1-2 years of martial arts study.
There are a lot of mall karate schools these days. There are many that focus on “family” karate. Check them out or the YMCA is another good place for “family” karate. There are a lot of instructors out there that nuture children, the classes are fun, they learn self discipline and control. I think that teaching your children martial arts and emphasizing all the other qualities one learns in addition to self defense is as important as teaching swimming and how to ride a bicycle safely.
I am starting to get myself back in shape after a 15 year hiatus so that I’ll be ready to teach and take my daughter to classes in a few years.
That would be me. I meant exactly what I said. Schoolyard/alley/sidewalk fights are not held under the Marquis of Queensbury rules. The winner is determined by who can walk away, or, conversely, the loser by who runs away.
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All four, and then some. Whatever it takes.
The bully initiated the ritual. Someone else just finalized it.
Nope. Neither does he.
A pattern won’t form if the outcome of a first incident isn’t to the bully’s liking.
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I’d call them antagonists, but in any event… The school probably already knows that there is insufficient supervision. Hell, there are referenda every year for more money, and I doubt that much of that money goes toward hall monitors. Kids often have to fend for themselves, and fend off attacks if need be.
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While you’re litigating, your kid is getting terrorized. When you show up on the local news, your kid gets ridiculed. You talk to the cops, and they speak to the other parents, and not much, if anything, happens.
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Protecting yourself lies within “established societal institutions.” You may dream you live in a rose-colored utopia where talking solves all the world’s problems, but that’s not real life, my friend.
And, for the record, I don’t “advocate” violence. I’ve never spanked my son or beat my (ex-) wife. I’ve tried to break up more fights than I’ve been actually involved in as a combatant. That old saw about “the best defense is a good offense” rings true, though, when it comes to bullies–which is what this thread is about. A bully wants a patsy because bullies are basically cowards who are trying to improve their self esteem at the expense of others. If they don’t see someone as an easy mark, they won’t mess with them.
Just wanted to be clear; The only reason my kid hasn’t dotted this kids eye already is becuase he didn’t want to get into trouble. Which in my op means he has a cosiderable amount of restraint for a 7yo. I couldn’t have put better than Astro put it; Talking to the teachers or the parents of the bully or whatever only addresses the syptom and not the cure.
To be frank, I get a little disapointed when I see how many men these days take a “Gahndi” approche to situations like this. Seems like American men are getting softer and softer everyday. I wonder if the Taliban would have tried their attack on the WTC if we did not portray such a soft image.
Did you take into account the possibility that:
I am old school i say give as good as you get. but for what its worth, find out if you have a school has a no tolerance policy. Otherwise when you tell you child to stand up for himself by fighting, he need to know he will get the same punishment as the bully. If it is an ongoing situation you better not give your child this advise unless you are willing to home school them, because with some “challenged” kids, the ones who can lay their behavior on a disorder, they cannot be touched by the school. So be advised, the days of stand up to them and it will be Ok are over in some places. Now the parent has to get in and make sure kids are safe.
my kids no bully; I;ve watched him play with the other kids in our neighborhood when he didn’t know I was watching and he is always courtious and nonconfrontational when it come to playing games and such he also behaves this way with his brothers, last year I got my kids a ps2 for christmas after I hooked the thing up to the tv he let his other brother play it while he sat there patiently waiting his turn without one complaint… Bullies don’t behave this way…
Duh, I completely misread that quote, sorry.
You’re right, SHAKES. I say we kill all those femmy men who encourage their sons to think instead of just kill, kill, kill. God knows, natural selection has allowed far too many momma’s boys to escape the early death they deserve. Dammit, someone has to say it: We should drop all those babies in the middle of the open desert. If they can’t get their soft little asses out of there, they don’t deserve to live. What politically correct little candy ass wimps we’ve all become!
And just to make sure you guys out there don’t think my 7 year old’s a fag for not beating the shit out of that other friggin’ little shit, he was just worried that if he did, he’d get the shit beat out of him like I always do whenever he pisses me off. He was just too young to know how much I’d admire him if he killed that fuckin’ little puke! In reality, the fact that he didn’t do so right away makes me think he must be some other guy’s kid. I gotta keep an eye on that puss to make sure he don’t go all faggy on me!
I wonder if the Taliban would have limited their attack to the WTC and the Pentagon if they knew we’d rather teach our kids to kill if they feel picked on rather than act all “civilized” an’ faggy shit like that.
Ambushed you take it way too far. Thats not what I mean; granted what I said about the Taliban was a little overboard. All I’m trying to say is it seems like women these days try to make men feel guilty for well… acting like men. Your first post in this thread is a prime example you seemingly scorn the previous posters for having a testosterone level. so whats your point? Is that a bad thing? I do believe my testosterone was put there for a reason. and I also don’t condone anyone being an asshole to anyone else for any reason that includes guys who pick on other guys simply becuase they are feminine.
I’m also for the whole thinking before you leap bit too. But I tell you what if some one were to ever manhandle my wife or children: I’m gonna kick their ass! And I’ll be damned If i’m just gonna give potential said person a talkn’ to.
Rysdad - well it’s pretty clear I disagree with (and consider deplorable) pretty much everything you said in your last post. But I have no more expectation of changing your views than you sould have of changing mine. IMO, resorting to violence is generally one of the easiest alternatives, albeit the one involving the least cognition and humanity. I teach my children that they are better people, for not automatically responding to violence with violence. An unthinking creature may have no other options. I desire my children to think of themselves as something better than that.
SHAKES, deploring Ghandi-ism, and the emasculation of men (my words, not yours): Whether you care to believe it or not, I am very confident that there are very few people, including trained fighters, who could get the best of me in a street fight. Yet, it would be incredibly hard for anyone to get me involved in one. As you suggested, imminent physical danger to my wife and loved ones is just about it. As for myself, it would certainly take more than a single punch.
IMO, fighting (not sparring, boxing, wrestling, martial arts, etc) is an extremely nasty and dangerous thing to be avoided at all costs whenever possible. This is one subject I have considerable experience in. In a fight, the likely (in fact intended) result is that either you, your opponent, or both of you, will be hurt - all of which are IMO undesirable outcomes. I would far rather be called a chicken, a sissy, or any other name, and walk away if possible after being pushed or hit, than to injure the guy doing the name calling and pushing. And what some may view as weakness on my part, I consider my greatest reservoir of strength. YMMV.
And IMO&E, the overwhelmingly vast majority of what goes on in playgrounds is so many levels below streetfighting, that it can hardly be compared. There are so many alternative avenues to investigate before resorting to violence.
Final twist, it is possible that training your child in self defense, and letting him/her know that you support them in defending themselves should it become absolutely necessary, may bolster their self esteem and manifest itself in their bearing such that they will be a less appealing target for the bullies. Of course, I could also name countlss other “confidence builders” which might have the same effect.
That’s your right. I believe I addressed each of your statements, and my rebuttals were cogent and to the point. Whether you choose to accept them is up to you, but I feel sorry for your kids.
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See above.
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Wrong. It’s often easier, initially, to run away. The cognition (and the subsequent repeat incidents) of what occurred, and what will probably occur again, are what’s hard to live with.
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That’s admirable. Violence doesn’t need to be the first response, unless the person feels they are in imminent danger.
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If you are referring to my son as an “unthinking creature,” then you, sir, are beneath contempt. A further description of you would be innappropriate in this forum.
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I hope they do, too. At least better than their hypocritical father. (See below)
This leads me to believe you’ve never been in one.
(bolding mine)
Hypocrite.
So, it’s OK if you respond to imminent physical danger with force, but not your kids? How old do they have to be before they’re old enough to defend themselves, or will you be holding their hand every minute of every day throughout their lives?
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Nope, you’ve never been in a real fight.
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It’s always possible to avoid initiating a fight. It’s not always possible to avoid one that someone else starts.
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I doubt it.
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How often would you be prepared to do this? How would you take to your son being labeled this way? Would your ideals hold up to years and years or terrorism and ostracism?
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Oxymorons are poor reservoirs.
You couldn’t be further off base. They are exactly street fights. Do you see any referees? Any boxing ring? Any 1-minute breaks between rounds? Any gloves? Any rules?
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And they should be applied, except when in imminent danger.
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I’m interested. Name 'em.
Additional note…
My son has taken karate for two years. I’ve also shown him some things and practiced with him. He is, as I’ve said before, rather passive. Some bullies mistake passivity for weakness. It’s those kids that get what they deserve if they decide to pick a fight with him.
Gee Rysdad. Awful quick to take offense and sling the insults. Given that attitude, I imagine you (and anyone you influence) may well need to use your fists more readily than might otherwise be necessary.
As to my ability to defend myself and my experience in the matter, well, you really wouldn’t have any way to know about that, now would you.
Yes, I am sure you are much tougher than me, and your son could beat the tar out of my son. Fell all better now?
Dinsdale,
You made the first implied insult. I simply returned in kind, and I wasn’t circumspect about it. Further, I haven’t had to use physical force in many years, and I hope to never have to do so. I will, though, if necessary.
As for your self-defense capabilities, I’m not concerned about them. You’ve provided sufficient evidence of their lack.
Finally, my son won’t need to beat up yours unless yours does something incredibly stupid.
If you would direct me to what you consider my “first implied insult,” we might be able to discuss whether it was intended or merely perceived (or possibly mis-perceived).
Other than that, and considering what I perceive as the increasingly hostile tone you have adopted, I don’t think I have mush else to say to you - certainly on this topic.
I think I have expressed just about everything I have to offer regarding this topic in this, and previous similar threads.
Read my response to your post regarding “unthinking creatures.”
If you meant no insult, so be it, and I withdraw my “beneath contempt” remark.
I’ll say this…at least you practice what you preach. You get involved in a discussion where your viewpoints are disputed, and you run away.
If you choose not to speak to me again, that’d be welcome.
Whether you care to believe me or not, I had no thought of you or yours when I wrote that specific line.
I will gladly comply with the preference expressed in your final statement. Please assume that none of my comments here or elsewhere on the boards either refer to or invite response from you.
Very well.
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If your posts necessitate a response, they’ll receive it, whether invited or not. Other than that…see ya.
Well now who has the irrational approach here?
The sarcasm aside I think you are not understanding what SHAKES is really saying. Or you are blowing it way out of proportion.
[Climbing onto soapbox]
There is a whole new way kids are being brought up that makes them believe that using any type of physical response is not only wrong but deviant. Boys are told that they should not watch violent shows or play with guns or fight or be physical because it is wrong. They are made to feel that if you are physical you are a bad person.
the problem is in the early stages many boys are just that. I don’t let my 14 month and 3 year old watch violent shows or anything with fighting, but guess what, they wrestle with each other, they push and shove and one tries to dominate the other physically. Are my kids rotten brats? Am I a bad parent who has not taught them right from wrong? No. I recognize that this is part of development and eventually as they learn to properly socialise they will not continue this behaviour.
In other words this is how boys are.
Now I do not condone violence in general but I have to admit from my own experiences sometime push has to come to shove.
Kids have a different set of social rules than adults because this is where they are learning their social limits. They are each trying to find their pecking order and there are those (The bullies) who try attain theirs at the expense of the perceived weaker kids, through intimidation and actual physical violence.
They revel in their status of “School Bully” because they can signal out one person to use as an example they can instil fear in others. That fear translates into the other kids not messing with the bully to avoid getting the same treatment.
Now sometimes, but not always, (and I’m only referring to grade school so the gun equation is less likely to be involved) if a child stand up to the bully physically, and wins, the Bully loses some of his intimidation or at least doesn’t want to waste time on someone who will not make him look good.
I believe that they should Talk, Walk, and if all else fails stand up (verbally or physically if needed)
[/CLIMBS OFF OF SOAP BOX]