Actually, they are matters of fact. A brain stem does not appear in a fetus until 8 weeks of gestation. Higher brain functions do not begin until 26 weeks of gestation. A fetus is not capable of sustaining itself until at least that point, and even then a lot of medical equipment is required. These numbers were not just picked out of the ether.
Yeah, because everyone knows that condoms are 100% effective.
Muad’Dib, if you’re so concerned that abortions be illegal, why don’t you take care of the TRUE issue here?
Why don’t you actively pursue ensuring of welfare and even increasing benefits? Why don’t you join the millions who want a single-pay health care system? Why don’t you lobby for women, all women since we are baby-making machines to you, get say . . . an automatic $50,000 per child they have, tax-free? Why don’t you have your wages garnished to put into your state child support to take care of the deadbeat fathers who refuse to pay? Why don’t you adopt all the little kids you can? Why aren’t you providing FREE daycare in your home?
I am so sick of the morality police in this country. What is moral for me, may not be moral for my next door neighbor. But who’s to say which set of morals are right? Not you! If you don’t believe in abortion . . . DON’T HAVE ONE. It’s not YOUR life, it’s mine. This is my body, not yours.
Oh, and BTW, I had an abortion during college because I had NO money and didn’t feel fit to bring a healthy, happy child into this world who would automatically live in a broken home. I also knew if I went through with it, I would never be able to give it up for adoption. Does that make me, in your eyes, a muderer? I have NO regrets, NO remorse. I knew I did what was right for me and my future.
You obviously know and care very little about the how the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy can affect a woman’s emotional and physical well being.
So she deserves to be injured or die? How can death be a "pro-life"position? All life matters – except for women who have abortions?
As has been pointed out repeatedly all fertilized eggs do not result in pregnancy. Roughly one fourth of all fertilized eggs will not make it past the first trimester.
You didn’t answer my question about legality. Will you put women in jail who have abortions? Will you investigate miscarriages?
And that’s why abortion should remain legal. Anti-abortion laws make every sexual encounter dangerous. They penalize poor women. They will be widely ignored as thousands of women will go abroad to have one every year. They are particularly ridiculous in American society where access to either pre or post natal care to actually take care of any baby is sometime completely denied because the woman in question can’t pay for it.
The pro and cons of abortion laws are quite firmly on the side against.
Anti-abortion laws don’t stop abortions. Even you admit they kill and maim.
Pregnancy is not a mere “inconvenience.” Women who get pregnant are at far greater physical risk from carrying a fetus to term than they are from an abortion.
No but they sure as hell have fewer side effects than the pill and are far easier to use than an IUD.
I completely agree with you. The former occupants of my house were anti-abortionists. Despite repeated calls I still get the literature. The last mailing was all about the glories of the re-election of George W. Bush.
Good thing there aren’t any elective abortions performed on zygotes…
(Yeah I get the point you’re making…but it gets tiresome to hear some folks refer to zygotes or clumps of cells as the thing being discussed, when abortions are generally not performed on same. Elective abortions are either performed on embryos or fetuses)
Yes, those are matters of fact, but they are (clearly) not matters to which I was referring. Whether and to what extent it is important to take facts such as those into account is a matter of judgement and opinion.
Not at all. Think of how much more joyful the world would be if everyone was pedantic first last and always. 
I don’t see how. If you’re making a decision as to when a fetus acheives awareness (or in Muad’dib’s words, “wakes up”) based on on clinical information, those should be the two factors which matter the most. Dismissing them as merely a side issue is fairly short sighted.
If you don’t believe in slavery…don’t own one. (wasn’t that indeed an argument?)
If you don’t believe in child laborers, don’t employ one. (wan’t that indeed an argument)
etc ad nauseum.
Of all of the arguments in this arena, this one is the lamest. We (as a society) impose “morality” on the populace all the time.
Now one can make a legitimate argument, in a situation like this, about whose rights get to “trump” the others. THAT kind of argument has merit…IOW does a woman’s “right” to have an abortion or not trump the “right” of an embryo/fetus to have life?
However, to suggest that we don’t ever “impose” a moral viewpoint on people (even if many of those people DISAGREE with that moral viewpoint) is naive or dishonest.
The question is not “when does a fetus achieve awareness?” The question is “should we allow abortion?” When thinking about the second question, one of the things to decide is how much the cognizance of the fetus (or lack thereof) matters to us. Medical science can give us a pretty good idea of when a fetus reaches some level of awareness, but it can’t tell us anything about how important that is to us.
So then, in your view, fetuses and up should have the right to drive, vote, work, drink, buy cigarettes? Until someone is of the age of 18, they do not have the same rights. You’re basically saying my right as an ADULT women is less than something that has not even a brain yet? And for someone who doesn’t believe in slavery, you have no problem enslaving women.
Oh, please, grow up. Another disingenuous arguement that gets trotted out all the time:
"Your position on controversial issue X equates to [pick one]:
A) you want to enslave women
B) you think women are subhuman
C) you secretly hate women
D) you’re a nazi
E) you’re a racist
As someone who doesn’t believe in murder, PinkMarabou, you sure have no problem with slaughtering an innocent. See? two can play that game.
The point is, I don’t think that’s a valid conclusion based on the totality of your position. Believe it or not, people on opposite sides of this issue can reasonably disagree without resorting to pathetic denouncements like: “you have no problem enslaving women”; or “fuck you, you have no idea what it’s like to walk in my shoes”; or… well there are a lot of them in this thread.
SHEESH, people, there’s more rational ways to address your opposition than that.
[shakes head]
You know, I have no problem discussing this rationally. But this is a touchy subject with me anyways because I HAVE BEEN THERE, and when there are people in this thread basically calling me a muderer, turnabout is fair.
Get the fuck over yourself jackass.
You know this is completely impossible or you wouldn’t keep putting up exceptions to that. You’ve already said that if the development of the egg toward a human being has shown that the mother’s life would be endangered or in fact her death would be assured were that pregnancy to continue then you’re ok with an abortion taking place.
Which I read as you can accept it is necessary, not that you like it even in these cases. Excuse me? What happened to that developing mass of cell’s right to life?
Conception occurs when sperm fertilizes egg, said egg is not yet implanted in the uterine wall.
Ok, we just defined that as the moment of “the right to life”. So if Mom doesn’t do everything in her power from that moment forward to ensure the implantation and full gestation of that egg she is guilty of what, manslaughter?
A young athlete gets pregnant and without knowing she’s pregnant engages in strenuous physical activity that causes a miscarriage, she’s guilty of what, murder?
I don’t care what your opinion on abortion is, you cannot legislate the human reproductive cycle when it’s not something we actually can control.
My personal opinion… it’s not my body, I’m not telling her what she can do with it. The moment you do, your slavery argument just gets turned around the other direction and you’ve enslaved that woman as an incubator for the term of that pregnancy. You can’t always tell when a pregnancy is endangering the mother’s life so in some cases you’re sentencing that woman to death.
I’m certainly doing my best to understand your point of view, but I’m still seeing it as arguing personal belief against cold hard facts.
You are making an arbitrary decision by deciding that the right to life begins at conception. If you can come up with a rational scientific reason why it has to be then rather than at the point that the fertilized egg implants safely in the uterine wall, or oh when the mass of cells actually develops a brain I’d be happy to hear it.
My personal opinion is actually less strict than the law is. My personal opinion is that if the baby isn’t able to be alive outside of the mother’s womb then that baby isn’t a person with rights yet. That’s a lot further than some pro-choice folks will go but to me that’s the logical end point of “it’s her body, it’s her choice”.
That’s also because it gives me the easiest scientifically verifiable point to determine that a “Right to Life” should exist for this person. It’s now a living, breathing human being.
Actually, the question is “Why do abortion protestors feel the need to show these lurid posters that aren’t at all a factual representation of an aborted fetus when it does nothing to help their cause and upsets my lunch?”
However. If we’re going to answer your question, then I would say as follows: “we” (the collective we, the United States “we”) already allow abortion. And it’s been questioned and tried in the courts over and over, and the answer is still “yes.” Whether or not “you” feel the awareness of a fetus is important, the courts do, as it gives them a basis on which to make their decision. Saying “It doesn’t matter if a living thing is aware, it’s still alive” is also a good argument for why a person shouldn’t have chemotherapy.
drpepper, I have no problem with people who don’t believe in abortion. More power to them. I don’t believe in abortion, either. What I do believe in, and what I insist you respect, is that I have the right to decide whether or not to carry a child to term. I respect your right to do the same. If you decide to have your child and never have an abortion, good for you! You have that right. You do not have the right to force me to live by your standards and belief structure. And I don’t have the right to force you to live by mine. It’s called the rights of the individual.
And this is how I view it as well. 90% of abortions occur during the first trimester, well within this range. If it cannot survive outside of the body, it is not a child yet. If that were the case, then why can’t we raise fetuses into children directly from conception?
I meant outside of the womb on that. :smack: